From Gaywired to Pink Media: Matt Skallerud's Impact on LGBTQ Media

Join us on Adventure Calls as we traverse the evolving landscape of LGBTQ travel media with industry pioneer Matt Skallerud. Uncover the pivotal intersection of marketing and true queer-friendly destinations, discovering if the places that woo you as a traveler are ready to embrace you as a local. Dive into a compelling conversation that redefines the meaning of inclusive tourism and genuine welcome.

In this episode of Adventure Calls, we're delighted to feature Matt Skallerud, a luminary in LGBTQ online media and the president of Pink Media. His 30-year journey began with the pioneering gaywired.com and shewired.com and led to working with an extensive network of LGBTQ-focused online destinations. A former board chairman of the International Gay and Lesbian Travel Association (IGLTA), Matt has lent his expertise to multiple boards including Travel Gay Canada. Today, he heads Pink Media and the impactful #ILoveGay Network, which aids queer-owned companies in reaching LGBTQ demographics through refined content marketing and social media strategies. An advocate for LGBTQ businesses globally, Matt shares his insights on what it takes to craft queer-friendly travel destinations that resonate with both locals and visitors alike. Join us as we explore the intersection of marketing and genuine LGBTQ-friendly spaces with industry authority, Matt Skallerud.

Below are the key takeaways from this episode:

1. Matt Skallerud of Pink Media shares his journey from starting one of the first LGBTQ websites, gaywired.com, to now helping companies target the LGBTQ demographic through social media and content marketing.
2. Destinations around the world seek Matt's expertise to market themselves as LGBTQ-friendly and appeal to queer travelers, highlighting the importance of authenticity in their marketing strategies.
3. The discussion explores the difference between destinations that are LGBTQ-friendly for tourists versus being truly welcoming and inclusive for locals and expats who are part of the LGBTQ community.
4. Matt reflects on the evolution of LGBTQ travel and how the concept of "gayborhoods" is changing as the community becomes more integrated into mainstream society.
5. The episode touches upon the distinct travel and living experiences of the LGBTQ population and emphasizes the ongoing need for safe, inclusive, and welcoming destinations globally.

Find Jessica Drucker online:

Website:www.rainbowrelo.com
How To Move Abroad Book: www.jessicadrucker.com/book
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rainbowrelo
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/queerexpats 

Find Matt online:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattskal/
PinkMedia: https://www.pinkmedia.lgbt/
Website: https://dot.cards/mattskal

Transcript

0:00

Everybody. Welcome back to the Adventure Calls podcast where we inspire and empower queer folks and their families to move, live, and thrive abroad. I'm your How, Jess Drucker. This week, we're talking to Matt Scalarud of Pink Media. Now, Matt's got a long history in the world of queer online media, and depending on whether you're a Gen Z er or a Gen Xer, you might know him from different things life his current I Move Gay interviews across social media or his websites like Gaywired and She World from back in the day. Today, Matt's the president of Pink Media, which specializes in helping businesses and destinations target queer folks via content marketing, social media, and more. But like I said, Matt began his online career about 30 years ago with the launch of gaywire.com. That was one of the top 3 LGBTQ websites worldwide at one time. He subsequently launched shewired.com as well as well as others. And Matt's got quite a lot of industry credit as well. He's the former board chairman of International Gay and Lesbian Travel Association or the IGLTA. He served on the boards of Travel Gay Canada. Now as the president at Thing Media and the whole I Move Gay Network, he helps companies reach their targeted LGBTQ demographic, but he also gives so much airtime to LGBTQ businesses around the US and around the world. What I really wanted to dig into with Matt today and what we get into on today's podcast is talking a bit about gay travel destinations and how destinations become LGBTQ friendly. What does that really mean? And how does marketing intersect with the realities of LGBTQ life on the ground in those places? So, like, just because a destination starts marketing itself as being LGBTQ friendly, is it really friendly for the locals and the local expats who live there? Sometimes inspiration are willing to welcome you as a queer person because they're willing to tolerate you as a traveler, but that's temporary. Are those destinations really willing to welcome you as someone who actually lives in that destination? We get into all that and more on today's episode of Adventure Calls with Matt Skalarude, a pioneer of queer online media. Also, I just wanna say, I know that the volume is a little bit off today. I don't know what's going on with my recording equipment, so bear with me. Matt sounds wonderful because he's a superstar, so at least you'll be able to hear him as clear as day. Thanks for your patience while we get that all sorted out. I promise I'm getting much better equipment soon. Matt, thank you so much for joining us on the Adventure Calls podcast. I'm gonna let you introduce yourself so that I don't butcher any of your history or make any assumptions. But I just wanna say it is really a joy and a pleasure to have you on. I consume an unusual amount of your content, so I'm excited to have you on today. Oh, I love it. You're too kind. You know, and and I I it's probably better to let me explain it because I I might be able to keep it nice and short. That's it. Because it was just it was, almost 30 years ago now, but I, I started a LGBT website. Really, it was just a gay website, but not knowing how it would go. It was called gaywire.com. We started it thinking everyone was gonna do it, and we were just gonna carve out a nice little piece and have some fun, and it turned into a real business. And then from there, we ended up becoming one of the top three LGBT websites worldwide. We actually created a female version of Lesbian Nation, which then became shewired.com, and we had gaysports.com, and we had a whole network, and I sold all that to Hear Media. They ended up actually acquiring almost everyone else. They bought gay.com, Planted Out, Yeah, Out Magazine, Advocate. They bought everything and brought it under one roof, and I just kind of got bored. And so I moved on. And ever since then, I didn't wanna recreate what I had done before, but I did enjoy working with companies trying to figure out, like, how do I reach the marketplace? And how do I reach my target market? And that's really what I've been doing for the last almost 20 years since I sold that, which is just simply working with companies first with, it used to be banner ads and email campaigns, and then with all the technology that we have today. Now cities kind of video and mobile apps, and of course, social media Thing such a dominant part. That's what we do. We just figure out how to target and reach a client's specific demographic online. And and, I have a lot of Thing. I wanna ask about all of those Thing. But first, we do wanna say that, like, lesbian inspiration, and so that's what really living me back. I think I looked at that before I knew what was going on with me. So because I Thing that was life like a little bit before I, like, figured myself out hands, like, even knew that I might be gay. But I do I do remember definitely being on that website and being, like, feeling life letters. Like, I was excited that, like, something like that. So it really I mean, I think a lot of people listening To Move probably spent time on those websites. Was it She World? Was that also one? It became Lesbian Nation became She Wired. Lesbian Nation Lesbian Nation became She WIRED. That's right. Because I I remember all of that. And then you you sold that to what what was the name that you sold? Hear Hear Media or Hear TV Media. Yeah. And is that now part of, like, the Advocate? Are they also Yeah. Well, it's gone through a few different spin offs and iterations, so they're not part of Hear anymore. And now, basically, Out Adventure, they've all spun off into a company called Equal Pride. But all the websites kind of got shut How. So they just they bought them, had all this traffic and technology, and tried to merge them together, and eventually they just kind of phased out. So you don't see any of those anymore, but you do see OutAdvocate as far as the kind of the print and the online versions. And so that's kind of the only legacy left. So the work that you do as a you are a professional gay, in the work that you Do. But a lot of it is related to travel and to destinations. Right? And so you're working I'd love to hear a little bit more about, life, so a destination will come to you and ask you to help them with, like, a marketing campaign. Is that the sort of way that it works? Yeah. Kind of. What I would say, that's also evolved over over all these years too. Best, I would say that destinations and travel in general has been one of the early early adopters of just pursuing hands marketing and and realizing that the LGBT traveler is is has has real value for them. That's right. And so that's why we joined IGLTA, the International Gay and Lesbian Travel Association back in 99 because I realized life we were already starting to work with travel companies. It's like we should become a closer part of that. And it was a good move because at the end of the day How Thing have gotten to the point where now inspiration it's a no brainer that many of them realize the LGBT travelers are a big component of incoming folks that they have coming to their inspiration, and they really want to be able to cater them, pursue them better, and Do a better job when they're there. Hands so and so, we work with, like, Palm Springs and Miami. And over the years, we've worked with the entire the country of, UK. We work with Spain. And they always have different it's always changing, but they're always typically looking for the same thing. It's like, life, we have world pride coming or we have all this, all these cities, and we want people to know about it. And so that's really been the core part of our job is helping to get their story out there to LGBT travelers who have an interest in Spain or have an interest in the UK. Yeah. I think that's how I heard your name maybe for the first life. It's just going back very far. But I used to work in Visit Britain when I worked in London. And I don't know how, but I feel like that's the first time I started getting, like, pink it was lives Thing Banana, Pink Banana Media Yeah. Yeah. Emailed. I think I've been on your list since, like, 2006. That would that would do it. Because, yeah, we visit Britain. And life you know the name Paul Author and all of his And I'll be here in New York. He's but we've we've worked with, How, I would say off and on. We've worked on projects, and then we were actually working with a lot until the pandemic kicked in and made everything stop. But, yeah, they've been very active in pursuing the marketplace for many years. And so we've been a post part of that. And obviously, obviously, you Thing a visit, world you a visit you're a visit Abroad? Yeah. I was an international press visits manager. Oh, that would do it. Yeah. So I'm sure we our paths crossed up at some point then. Yeah. For sure. Let's take an obvious inspiration, right, like Palm Springs. Obviously, Ain't Very Gay How always you know, has been. And they you know, that's sort of life a almost like a like a, what Do you call it, a mature market, right, for for the queer dollar, let's say. But do destinations ever come to you who who are, like, just dipping their toes into this? And, like, how are what is it like for them when they when they're trying to market themselves as LGBTQ from you? Like, what defines that for them, or how do they try to show

that to travelers? Michael Osterholm: 8:10

Well, and that's the key. A lot of times they'll say, How, we do want to pursue. We want LGBT travelers to come into our inspiration. But the first question just really becomes, well, what are we gonna tell them about? Some places have an event, some places have a pride, or they Move, Traditionally, you'd always think it would be like a bigger place like Toronto or Los Angeles, or where they have a gay village hands gay bars and gay restaurants. But in this case, now you're looking Move, especially in today's day and age, you're looking more at just showing things as being LGBT friendly. That Uplos is welcoming the hotels. It wouldn't be a gay restaurant or a gay bar, but more of an LGBT friendly restaurant or bar. And then the question then just becomes, how do we tell that story? And really, that's what it boils down to. It's not really so much any, advertising anymore where you're just putting banner ads and trying to explain that or print ads. What you're really doing is trying to create a story and it could the story could be interviews, video interviews, or written word about some of the people that are there hands some of the businesses hands How, you know, what they have done to welcome a traveler. And also some of the cities. And not just museums and so forth, but life some places have white water river rafting hands a lot of fun things that there's a component of there's a percentage of LGBT travelers who love all that stuff. It's about defining what the story is, what we're gonna Youll know, what's used to, you know, to kind of entice them. And then and then it's a matter of getting that story up in front of the right folks. Do you ever feel conflicted? Like, are there ever destinations that are like, you are like, I don't think Thing that as a new friendly place? That doesn't come up as much like, so much anymore Best because, I maybe because I'm I'm, life, an old Thing old man sometimes, and I could just simply say, you know, there's it's not a good fit. Hands, and I have done that a few lives, with businesses in general because sometimes sometimes that does arise where but you can usually catch that early on where somebody's just kinda throwing out things. Some of the so all you world tell that all they really want is, there's gay dollars to be found, and I want some of it. And it's like, yeah, but that's not enough. We have there's gotta be just a little bit more at least. There's gotta be some some Move thought into it. And so in that sense, we really haven't had any issues because a lot of these folks have been educated over the years. They've attended IGLT conventions or community marketing hands some of the events that To Roth has done. And so they know. They know how to sometimes do their homework and be more prepared internally before they start even going out externally to be able to attract travelers. Yeah. Yeah. I've been finding it pretty interesting because, like, you know, we're Thing with people who wanna move abroad. Living abroad is a different it's different to traveling abroad, and that's obvious. But I still think that because the travel market is so much more I mean, it's just so much more interconnected and developed than, like, this, you know, relocation market. Right? And so it's a good guide, and it's a good way to see what the the friendly destinations are. IGLTA's website alone, you know, just life their own content. Right? Your content. Everyone. It's a it's a good way to understand sort of what friendly places there are, but I do think there's an element of marketing where it's life, you know, it's they may have been successful in terms of their travel marketing, but is it friendly to to live there? And that's what it's like. What are the actual, like, legal legal rights that you Move? Or, you know, what's the actual social sentiment? Because a lot of places will tolerate you as a traveler, but they're a little bit less able to tolerate you as an actual person. That's a good and that's a good word, and we're not we're not going someplace to be tolerated. You know? I'm not looking at we're just Move and more. It's a slow progression, and it's kind of life I was talking to somebody this morning. It's not a straight line that goes up. It's kind of up and down, but it it is it is always improving, which is just that we're just part of the fabric of the human existence of we're just people. We're not that exciting sometimes. We're boring. I think people found that out with Will and Grace in the nineties where they're like, oh, they're just boring people like the rest of us. That call said, what we are looking Youll don't wanna be no one wants to be discriminated against, or you don't wanna feel like you're gonna go to a place and just feel that hostility. My husband and I, we we did a road trip of kind of eastern through Germany. We went to Poland a few years ago. And I will tell you that it felt weird to be in Poland, not from not from the, you know, restaurants and every place. Everybody was perfectly fine. But when Youll were walking around some of the city hands we To to the cities square. There were folks with their microphones hands their little boom boxes with a group that were anti LGBT and spewing anti LGBT hate out there. At least but that was one of the first and only times I'd ever seen that. Hands, and, that's very disconcerting. It makes you feel life, you know, all of a sudden you feel a little fearful. You've gotta you don't want them to know that you're a target because you Do have you're not in your own country, and you have no idea what they're going to do. So we just simply kind of went our merry way and moved away from that. But knowing that those things expats, I think, will help folks, you know, be able to make their own decisions as far as where they wanna go. Generational travelers, older travelers who have a very different expectation hands the experiences they're looking for are very different than younger travelers because a lot of older folks, a little older than myself, have felt marginalized, and pushed aside. And they Move felt a certain way that they carry that with them even to this day. And so sometimes sometimes they'll have more of a tendency of wanting to go life to a Toronto in a gay village. Or I said Toronto a few times, but even Wilton Hands in South Florida, very popular place because it's very insular in some ways. They've got their gay villages in that sense in in will Youll To, and that's, people feel very comfortable there, especially older folks. Yeah. I I wonder if the concept of the gayborhood, like, will disappear as, like, integration happens more or, you know, it's, like, 20% or something of Gen z identifies in some ways queer or something like that. You know, it's these these are great numbers. So, yeah, we're definitely winning on that side. But, you know, I just I wonder if, like, a gayborhood will continue in that way. They're they're already they've already they've been going they've been phasing phasing out slowly over the last 20 or 30 years. Again, Toronto. I don't know why I keep saying To, but, I think it's had a lot of, Toronto Toronto was very eager to pursue the LGBT market back in the early 2000s, and they're still out there doing that. They're visible, but they they were really big at marketing their their, church street Thing their gay village, and that was a and all the gay bars. And it was such a core part. That's where Queer as Folk was filmed in Toronto. I mean, everything was so, so world to that area. And over the last 20 years or so, it has it is kind of completely faded away. And so now it's a very mixed area. And, but it's it's, you know, the gays there. They're going out. There's bars and warehouse clubs and all sorts of things all out throughout the city now. And you see the same thing even happened before that in Miami. Miami used to be very, very much, you know, you can almost call it a gay ghetto or a gay village, whichever word you wanna use. Yeah. But it was very, especially in Miami Beach, it was just very gay, gay, gay. It used to be kind of a bad place bad neighborhood for a world, and the gays moved in, and all the clubs were there, and things elevated, and but then all of that went away. So there are certain people that feel betrayed by Miami. They're like, oh, Miami's sold out, and it used to be gay, and now it's not anymore. But if you go on lives Lincoln Road in Miami Beach, you realize that How, the gay community is just very mixed and blended in with with the rest of society there in Miami. And so it's just not so specifically ghettoized in that sense. Mhmm. And then Wilton Manors and Fort Lauderdale being north of that, a lot of the people that live there have very strong feelings about about the Miami experience and how they don't wanna be like that. They wanna be very different. So you kinda see that that that disparity or that difference, very easily living in the cities cities right next to each other. Cities interesting. It's like it's like some people feel safer when it is a Thing neighborhood because then they see, like, people similar to them, and other people feel safer. Maybe that's, like, a younger generation feels safer because they can just be anywhere, and they don't need to be in, like, one safe space. Right? Yeah. So it's it's an evolution that does not happen the same way everywhere at the same life, so it's it's interesting. But, what are some of the destinations that you've worked with in Europe or or other or other places? That I would say it's life some of them that actually hired us and was has been Switzerland, early on. Actually, Switzerland was probably life 99, 2000. They were one of our very firsts that we did kind of a whole campaign for. And ever since then, then it was Spain off and on for a lot, and then visit Britain hands doing quite a lot for over a very large number of years. Hands then then when you just kind of expand from there, some of the other ones haven't necessarily been clients as much as folks that I meet at, like an IGLT convention that are very embracing. And so that have offered to find me into certain places for things. So life Malta was a good example. So Malta right before WorldPride last year, they hands me come in and spend some time with their folks, and what they were looking for is for Move, not so much as a journalist, but more as kind of like the work we do in the business to business world to kind of help just get their story out there. And so you'll see a lot more of that. I've been to Valencia recently in Spain, Malta, places in Youll. And so each one is kinda call by case basis where they're looking to to get their story out hands they're willing to kind of, trade by offering Youll, kind of wining and dining you along the way. And so that's always fun. And That's what To, the travel influencers, they get thrown those things all the time. No. Sometimes one might deal with travel influencers. I think life, it looks am I not doing that side of things? Does it work with people? Kind of a travel influencer. Now that leads me to sort of where I wanted to go. You are producing so much Like I said, I do consume an unusual amount of content from you recently. Your I Move gay series, which is so fascinating and interesting, Can you explain a little bit for people listening what your I love gay series is, and what inspired you to go ahead and start doing that? Yeah. I don't know. It was a kind of a couple it was I was inspired because I'd always thought about wanting to create some sort of, like, a video thing someday, but the pandemic happened and I got world, where I thought with life lot of the business, Visa Thing was a big part of that, and others that just everything dropped off and was on hold indefinitely. So I thought, well, rather than be bitter about it, why why don't I, you know, what do I wanna do? So I started creating this this video where idea where I was interviewing folks. And the idea then was, how are you getting through the pandemic? And the people I was interviewing were LGBT businesses, and business owners, and folks in travel. How are you getting through the pandemic? And each one of them was kind of a unique different story. And that was the start. And so as I continued to do those, the production quality got much better, and I learned how to use green screens and and and make the make things look a lot cleaner. But then call, it was the format, and it went from just kind of this pandemic that was kind of dominant part of our conversations in 2020. It started to morph into just life, call me about your business, and how are you now that things are opening up? How are you getting yourself out there? And so we kind of grew and evolved with those times from the pandemic when there was plenty of time to kinda cut your teeth and learn without feeling like you're getting behind on Thing, because there was really nothing to get behind on world wise. And the format is always about 10 to 15 minutes, so they're short form. And they're conversational interviews software. And my goal is even though on this interview here, I am chatting too much. In general, I try not to talk too much. That really, I'm just trying to help the other person kinda tell their story and Thing, you know, and sometimes it's a lot bigger stories, or sometimes it's a story about a specific project, like a book release or something like that. And, we've done almost almost 550 interviews now. So it's a little insane. Yeah. And I can't turn it off anymore. I thought about trying to phase it call, but I have publicists, and I have you know, I have folks, and they're just always emailing me saying, hey. We really wanna be, on your show. And, and there's part of me that just enjoys it so much, so I think I'm just gonna keep keep doing that until I retire. I really thought I would phase things out a little bit, maybe 1 a week or something. I I could already tell you that next week, I'm doing, an interview a day, and on one day, I'm doing to of them. So there's no there's there's no rest for the wicked. There's no Yeah. There's no rest on that. But it but it's okay because I I enjoy it. Nomadic Boys is gonna be Abroad life. And the and the and the gay travel world, they're probably they're probably one of my favorite. They're the I shouldn't say favorite, but they really are because they're one of the not not only one of the largest, but they're they really get it when it comes to content creation and being an influencer, but also being engaged and engaging with their audience. And we're gonna have them on the show. They just came out with a new book about some of the work that they've done. And simultaneously, we're gonna bring on the folks from 2 To Tourists, who are also very strong out there in what they Do. But call, Austin works for IGLTA in their marketing side. Hands we're gonna talk a little bit between that interview and a cities of other interviews. We're gonna talk about IGLTA convention coming up in Japan hands Osaka in October. Do lots of exciting stuff, and we're gonna explore more and do a series of interviews on senior LGBTQ travel. There's a whole world kind of developing out there, and I've talked to a number of folks. And so we're gonna start bringing those stories together into kind of a unified thing because there's there's actually something there when it comes to seniors Thing on LGBT trips, but some of the special needs, what they're looking for, and so and so that's gonna be really interesting to flesh out as well. Sometimes, when the when when folks are coming to us that it's more of a business transaction where they're they have, life, like I said, a book release or something, we're trying to steer that more towards just doing that for clients and so forth. And and then we're even telling them, like, that there would be a charge to do that because all of a sudden, it's no longer just kind of this interview style of just bringing somebody's story to life, but more How now it's more a business transaction hands a product that they or a music release that they wanna get out. And so we're trying to kinda go a little bit more in that direction, and I thought maybe that would limit the number of things that we were, introduced. Now that hasn't slowed it down either. So but it is a good component of our business because it allows us when we're working with clients, we're always trying to work with them on getting their story out to the the target audience. And this video just becomes a nice part of that. And we've got the audience for it because especially, you know, we've we ended up over the years building an audience of a network of profiles. The Isle of Gate profiles are strongest on Twitter, which I'm fully aware is, not everybody wants to talk about. But it's still a powerhouse for us because we don't we don't see all the trolls and all the they're out there, but because we we ignore them and don't respond, cities just nothing really happens from from that side. So we're able to keep things very clean, but call we have these niche profiles. I love gay New York, and I love gay LA, or I love gay sports, and I love gay theater. But each one of them speaks to its own specific audience, and there's a lot of content out there, and we're able to kinda engage with, share, and then post some of our own, including our interviews. And the network's now over 1,500,000 followers and growing. So when we create these videos, we have an immediate audience for the videos and that niche audience. So if whatever the niche is that of who we're interviewing, we're able to to of plug it in to the right place there. And if it has a business component, we put it into LinkedIn where you see us a lot, and that's where we have probably Youll with group and personal network by about 50,000 followers. So on the Twitter and LinkedIn, we're we're like the anti influencer because the influencers love TikTok and Instagram and and so forth. And here we are running around on on Twitter and LinkedIn, and we're doing very well in that sense. One of the things you know, my one of my dreams in the future with with Rainbow Relocation and everything is to really, like, hone in on queer culture around the world, but that seems very far away for me right now to be able to pull that off. But do you ever talk to business owners abroad, like, who actually live abroad, or or are you talking to mostly US based? Yeah. No. I would say ever since the pandemic, I would say that that kind of accelerated, and there's a lot more of that. So Mhmm. Simple example. And and when I use this example, I also show that, like, I'm a hybrid in between the non nomadic world and the nomadic world. I'm somewhere in between. My husband and I, because he works remotely now, but he's the corporate guy, but he's able to now work from home. And so we Best life, we were in Thailand for 2 weeks. And so that's about as far as we've pushed cities To be away in a place for 2 weeks. But we life kinda settled in there. So he'll go to a we were in Chiang Mai. He'd go to a we work type of place every day hands work US hours. And so we've lived that life. But while we're in Chiang Mai, it's very easy, especially with social media, but there were people that I have done business with that just happen to be living there now. And so one of them was from the Gay Games, and there were a few other Youll, and there were some locals because we also stayed in Bangkok. So then there were some locals that we world connected to on LinkedIn. And I was able to make a real impact as far as being able to meet with these folks hands talk shop, talk business in a way that I could never have done if I had not been in Thailand at that time. So I enjoy kind of being there. Like I said, I feel like I'm in between the worlds. So where can people find you? How can people stay in touch with you and consume your content and or possibly work with you? Yeah. No. Cities just, we we try to keep it simple. So on any social media, it's, on a personal level, it's mattskal, m a t t s k a l. And on the business, it's Pink Media LGBT. Business website is pinkmedia.lgbt. So we try to keep it as simple as possible, but, yeah, we're easy to find hands would love to if any of your audience had any questions or wanted to ask, you know, learn things further, just let me know. I'd love to be there for her. Thank you so much. Again, Youll honor to have you on the show. Really appreciate it. Alright. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Adventure Calls podcast where we empower queer folks and their families to move, life, and thrive abroad. If you liked what you heard, please head over to Apple Podcasts or anywhere you're listening to this show hands give us a follow so you catch our next episodes as well. If you really liked what you heard, then we'd love if you could take the time to leave a review or even share this with a friend. And if you want more queer content about moving abroad or your own international relocation strategy, head over to rainbowrelo.com. That's rainbowrel0.com, and you can join our free Facebook group, Queer Expats. That's all for now and until next time, I'm Jess Drucker pushing you to listen to your gut and follow your own personal call to adventure.