How Project 2025 will affect LGBTQ+ Americans, an interview with Uncloseted Media's Spencer Macnaughton

Should we stay or should we go now? That’s the question that LGBTQ+ folks and their families have been asking over the last several months of this 2024 election cycle. If Trump wins, are we safe? And just how bad will Project 2025 be for the LGBTQ+ community if he does win?

Make no mistake about it. There is a tangible, intentional ecosystem created to scapegoat and marginalize queer folks in a quest for power from the right, says Spencer Macnaughton, our guest. Spencer is a Gracie Award-winning and Emmy-nominated journalist. He has written and produced for 60 Minutes+, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Vice, Vox, Time, NBC News, The Guardian, and Rolling Stone. He is also an Adjunct Professor at New York University where he teaches a course about LGBTQ journalism. Macnaughton is now the Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Uncloseted Media, an investigative LGBTQ news publication that will launch September 3rd.

Contribute to the growth of Uncloseted Media here: https://www.paypal.com/donate/?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=PFPHZ5CHP35TG&ssrt=1715262419710 

Below are the key takeaways from this episode:

• Project 2025: The episode highlights the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025, a document with anti-LGBTQ policies that could affect the community under a Trump administration.
• Anti-LGBTQ Legislation: There is concern over new anti-LGBTQ laws in states like Texas and Florida, which may serve as models for federal policies.
• Activism and Relocation: Jess and Spencer stress the importance of voting and activism, along with discussing the choice between staying to fight for LGBTQ rights or relocating to more progressive countries.
• Uncloseted Media Launch: Spencer announces the September 3 launch of Uncloseted Media, an LGBTQ news publication aimed at providing rigorous journalism on LGBTQ issues.

Find Spencer Macnaughton + Uncloseted Media

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TikTok @unclosetedmedia

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LinkedIn: Uncloseted Media

UnclosetedMedia.com

Links from the episode:
Project 2025: https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf

Heritage Foundation https://www.heritage.org/
Outspoken (an LGBTQ right-wing publication) https://getoutspoken.com/ 

Rainbow Relocation Strategies
90-Day Exit Strategy Cohort ( join the waitlist for our next cohort - more information coming mid September)

Queer Expats Worldwide Facebook Community
Rainbow Relocation Strategies
@rainbowrelo on Instagram
Book: How To Move Abroad 

Your host, Jessica Drucker, can be found online at jessicadrucker.com

The Adventure Calls podcast is a bi-weekly podcast that seeks to empower queer folks to move, live and thrive abroad with interviews with relocation experts, queer expats and other organizations that give a lens on the LGBTQ+ experience in the world.

Transcript

0:10

Alright. Welcome back to the Adventure Calls podcast where we empower queer folks, their families, and allies to move, live, and thrive abroad. I'm your host, Jess Drucker. I'm happy to say that since we recorded the podcast you're about to hear, the political temperature definitely seems to have cooled a bit. Kamala Harris and Tim Walz bring joy and a little bit more of a sense of safety, especially for the LGBTQ community. There's a lot less fearmongering going on in the 2024 election cycle. So today, we're talking about Project 2025 and how it will affect LGBTQ folks specifically. Here's what I want to make sure it comes across as you listen to this episode. You're gonna meet Spencer MacNaughton. He's an investigative journalist and founder of Uncloseted Media, which is set to launch September 3rd. Or if you're listening to this after, then it launched on September 3rd. We spoke on a live Zoom call. It was available to the Queer Expats Worldwide Community. This is our free Facebook community for LGBTQ folks at any stage of their expat journey. So whether that's being in the information gathering stage, like you think you might wanna move abroad or for current expats who are already living abroad. We try to have at least 1, if not more, informational talk per month that gives access to those folks first. We talk about different destination where many of our members are actually looking to move, or we have talks with leaders on topics that affect us as queer folks. So if you're interested, go to Facebook, type in Queer Expats Worldwide, and feel free to join us there. You'll also get access to lots of other information and, of course, community of people who are looking to do or have done exactly what you're looking to do if you decide that adventure has called and it's time for you to at least consider a move abroad. So in this discussion, Spencer highlights the critical need for rigorous investigative journalism focused on the LGBTQ community in the United States. And I think this is where it gets really important to me and why I'm so invested in what it is that Spencer is doing with Uncloset. So unlike other countries, the US has seen a significant rise in anti LGBTQ legislation. Hundreds of bills have swept through state legislatures, and many have become law. And it's this trend. It's it's an alarming trend that underscores the power and the effectiveness of what is really an anti LGBTQ ecosystem. It's well funded, deeply entrenched within powerful institutions. So I think it's really important to note that while other countries talk about trans rights or trans issues or LGBTQ equality, it is not sitting within a well funded ecosystem like we have in the United States. However, this, like, well funded ecosystem in the US bleeds ideologically abroad. And so there's, like, a global export of anti LGBTQ rhetoric and then policies by American groups even. So organizations like the Alliance Defending Freedom and the Family Research Council extend their influence internationally by setting up operations in human rights hubs like Geneva, Brussels, and Paris. So this expansion into Europe and beyond poses a really significant threat for LGBTQ folks everywhere because they are well funded and strategically positioned groups, and they're looking to push this anti LGBTQ agenda on a global scale. So back to Spencer himself. He was born and raised in Toronto, and he moved to the United States about a decade ago to study journalism at Columbia University. So he himself is a queer expat, which is awesome. Over the past 10 years, he's worked for many media outlets, CBS, Wall Street Journal, even as a reporter for Nickelodeon News. He teaches a course at NYU as an adjunct professor, and the topic is LGBTQ journalism. And throughout his career, he saw this gap in coverage on the LGBTQ community. And it was particularly a gap in terms of discussing well organized and well funded opposition. Right? And so a lot of times, you'll see LGBTQ related headlines that are clickbait or very surface or really just gossipy, but the real stories kinda fizzle out and don't get investigated. And that's what Spencer is seeking to doing. He's determined to fill this gap. He launched Uncloseted Media, which really aims to provide in-depth coverage of issues affecting the LGBTQ community. And the publication's inaugural set of stories will focus on project 2025 and how it will affect LGBTQ individuals, but they'll also have stories focused on education, the election, and legislation. And I think it's really important for the queer community, especially listeners to this podcast, to recognize, okay, so I might be very interested in moving abroad. And likely that's in some part to the lack of safety that we feel. We could feel safe now in the state that we live in. But should project 2025 become federalized or just in general, like the constant threat to our freedoms might make us feel like we wanna find an alternative place to live. And the thing is when you start thinking about a life abroad, you start thinking about life abroad. What I mean is once you become an expat, you are internationally minded. You become a globally minded person. And so as queer expats, even as future queer expats, we can become more aware of queerness around the globe and be aware that if Project 2025 becomes a part of our daily lives, while we have options to move to safety with our families in other places, this will still have sort of a an ideological bleed through, the rest of the world as well. And so it's really important for us to stay in tune and participate as much as we can here in the US to fight this, and I do think that getting involved with unclosited media is one way to do that. For now, I hope you get fired up by listening to this discussion on Project 2025. And if you like what we're doing here, if you like the type of content we're providing, please let us know by sharing this episode, by making sure to hit follow and downloading future episodes, and leaving us a rating or a review wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. But for now, enjoy the Adventure Calls podcast. Hello, everyone. Welcome to this very special recording, from the Queer Expats Worldwide Facebook group today. I'm gonna give you guys just a few more minutes, for those who are joining a little bit late, but, I I wanna say that I'm so so excited to have everyone live on this and then also for anyone listening on the replay. Those who don't know me, actually, my name is Jess Drucker. I'm the founder of the Queer Expats Worldwide Community. I also run Rainbow Relocation Strategies. We empower queer folks to move, live, and thrive abroad. So if that's what you're thinking about, you're definitely, in good hands there. And I wanna say before we get started, which I'm very excited to have Spencer on today, and I do wanna get to it. But I wanna say that until recently, I have really always tried not to lean into fear mongering when talking about moving abroad. For me, it's about the adventure of moving abroad. For me, it's about all the benefits from a move abroad. Living abroad, I think, can truly be one of the best things you do with your life. I could lean in and talk about, like, gun safety and health insurance and, the chemicals in our food, but I never do. I always talk about the benefits of living abroad. You become more nimble, more flexible. You learn languages. You understand so much more about the world. And that's really where I've always kept the conversation with clients, in any of the media that I produce. But I'm I'm really well aware that just a few weeks ago in this Facebook group, for example, we had 84 members. It was a sleepy small town kinda group. And within 3 weeks, we now have 656 and at least 10 to 20 people are joining every day, and you're not joining, because of the adventure. I think right now, we are finding that queer folks are getting really nervous. We wanna know and we wanna inform ourselves about what's happening in 2024 and 2025 with the election, and I think we need a plan. We need a plan b, and we need to understand, what's coming at us. And that is why I really, really wanted to get Spencer on. I, Spencer reached out to me recently, and I learned about his project in which I'm gonna really let him get into in more detail. And I I thought there's no one better to talk to us about project 2025 and what's expected than than Spencer MacNaughton. So let me give you his bio, and then I'm finally gonna let him talk. Okay? So please welcome Spencer MacNaughton. Spencer is a Gracie award winning, Emmy nominated journalist. He's written and produced for 60 Minutes, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Vice, Vox, Time, NBC News, The Guardian, The Rolling Stone. He's also an adjunct professor at NYU, New York University, where he teaches a course on LGBTQ journalism, and he's now the founder and editor in chief of Uncloseted Media, an investigative LGBTQ news publication that is launching September 3rd. So, Spencer, welcome to this webinar. Thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm really happy to be here, and, I hope I can be somewhat helpful. Yeah. I real I really think you you will be able to be. I think this is like some primary source material talking to you, and I think that's really important to inform ourselves because, you know, one of the things that got me when when you and I first connected was I you don't realize what you don't have until until it just comes to you like this. I can't think of a publication that does investigative journalism focused on the LGBTQ community. That is something that we need more of in order to inform ourselves, and it's made me realize that there there is an anti LGBTQ ecosystem. And that's really what you're focusing on with Uncloseted Media. Could you talk a little bit more about your background and, like, what you what led you to launching Unclosetted? Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely. So I'm born and raised actually in Toronto. So I am on a visa here in the United States myself, and I came about a decade ago to study journalism at Columbia University. And I I did, you know, grad school there. And then over the last 10 years, you know, I've been staff at The Wall Street Journal, at 60 Minutes Plus, at even Nickelodeon News. And over the years, I've kind of written and produced LGBTQ themed stories more on a freelance basis for a lot of the publications you listed. And I've always just recognized that there is a major gap in coverage as it relates to kind of rigorous journalism about the LGBTQ community, particularly in the US. I would argue that, you know, in Canada, there isn't as much of a there there needed for a publication like this today. But in the United States, you know, like you said, the anti LGBTQ ecosystem, it's extremely well funded. It's extremely powerful, and it's effective. You know? There's hundreds of anti LGBTQ bills sweeping through state legislatures right now, and last year, 75 passed into law. So unlike, you know, hate groups of other minority groups that often are, you know, extremist in their ideology, but often they're lost little boys in basements who do dangerous things still. Our ecosystem, for the most part, is, you know, wolves in sheep's clothing. It's Ivy League educated men and women in suits who have access to some of the most, you know, powerful institutions and buildings in this country. So I've always recognized that and just have been shocked, frankly, at the lack of rigorous reporting that's been done on this ecosystem in a country where, you know, this community is, relatively speaking to other developed countries, really under attack. So I've you know, in in February of this year, I said, I'm gonna just do it and kinda take a leap of faith and launch something to fill that gap. So it's called Uncloseted Media, and we are gonna launch on September 3rd, the day after Labor Day, with a set of election themed stories. One story about project 2025 and the implications for LGBTQ folks, and then a lot of stories that are back to school themed as well. There's a lot of education LGBTQ themed stories as well because, you know, we see headlines about how these bills are coming for, you know, the children of these schools. Right? And, you know, that's another thing that I think people said, oh, well, you know, how are you gonna build an audience outside LGBTQ? Well, a quarter of Gen z adults now in the US identify as LGBTQ, and every single person in this country at this point is a mother, a father, a brother, a cousin, a friend, an ally, you know, or has tension because they're not an ally. So it's relatable. LGBTQ is no longer a niche thing. It's mainstream, and it should be. And newsrooms all over the place, it shouldn't take an LGBTQ publications to know that. There should be consistent rigorous coverage everywhere, but there isn't yet. Hence, why I'm launching uncloseted. Yeah. I hope that wasn't a mouthful. No. It was, but no. It's great. I mean, it it really explains it, and you're totally right. And I think that's what's so interesting about you know, a lot of people come to me and and they ask me about, well, you know, I see that these countries maybe, you know, there are, like, LGBTQ rankings, right, of countries around the world. And, like, there will be countries that rank even lower than the US, for example, you know, like Mexico or or places where people do wanna move and they're thinking about moving to. But I think what you just said is so important, but no country has such an organized anti LGBTQ ecosystem in it where 5 100, 600 bills are being put forward or whatever and 75 every year are being passed, for example. And that's really the difference. It's the organization of the anti LGBTQ rhetoric that is so dangerous here. Mhmm. 100%. And and to your point, so our our publication is gonna focus mainly on the US, but it will also you know, it so it's not like a global news publication. However, it's also gonna really focus on America's export of anti LGBTQ hate. So a lot of these major power players that are, you know, Southern Poverty Law Center designated hate anti LGBTQ hate groups. So you have groups like the Alliance Defending Freedom, for example, the Family Research Council. They are now setting up shop in, you know, international humans human rights hubs. They're in Geneva. They're in Brussels. They're in Paris. And that's really dangerous because when you have people with that much money and that much power and that much, frankly, you know, intellectual capacity because they've come from, you know, middle to upper class backgrounds, it's dangerous what they can do at the international level, and and we're seeing some of that play out already. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And we've seen the role of evangelical Christians in Africa, for example, that are making some of those laws come into come into place there as well. So yeah. Absolutely. Okay. So this is all really interesting. And, again, so excited to have someone like you join our community and have this conversation. Can we just, like, get into, like, a little nitty gritty here? What can you please just, like, in a nutshell, really? I mean, I know that's probably hard. But, like, let's talk about project 2025. What is it? And can we put it in the words of Kamala if you're on TikTok? This is running through your mind all the time right now, but in the context of all that came before, can you put project 25 2025 into some context? What is it, and when where did it come from? I will do my very best. So Yeah. Yeah. No pressure. Yes. Exactly. So because it's a beast. It's a complete beast. And I think there's just been a lot of headlines, and it's been used as, you know, a little bit of a dog whistle from I don't know if that's the right term, but it's just been used as a buzzword from from the from, you know, folks who are in the Democratic party. You hear it on CNN. Well, project 2025. I bet you a lot of those folks talking couldn't really say what about it. Do you know what I mean? Because it's a 922 page document. So this was a document that was created by the Heritage Foundation, and I think this is really important. And I I think, you know, News Cash should should underscore this more consistently and with more emphasis that it the Heritage Foundation is a notoriously anti LGBTQ group in terms of what it stood for. It's a social conservative think tank that's been around since 1973. And over the last, you know, I've yeah. Over the last 50 years 50 plus years, they have been, you know, as anti LGBTQ as the far right in America will will allow it to be. So they've, you know, advocated for policies that would, you know, give more protections for people who wanna practice conversion therapy. They've advocated for bans for gay and lesbians in the military. They've advocated for disallowing any LGBTQ leaders from being boy scout leaders against gay marriage. You know? And now, like the current state of affairs, they're coming for everything trans. So they created this. So this is a document, this 922 document that has become the biggest document that's created by the Heritage Foundation. Like, that is something that's kind of, to me, very crazy and is not talked about enough. Right? But, broad strokes, it's known as the 2025 presidential transition project. Right? And the aim of promoting, and I'm literally reading, a collection of conservative and right wing policies to reshape the United States federal government and consolidate executive power should Trump win the 2024 presidential election. And y'all might have seen, you know, if you're watching the news that Trump has been claiming he has no idea what it is lately. You know, he's complete. He's distancing himself from it. And I think it's important to note. You know? I'm not gonna judge whether or not he can't remember it actually or he doesn't really know what it is. You know? That's not for me to do as a journalist. Right? But I think it's important to note that, you know, CNN recently found that a 140 members of the Trump administration contributed to the report. Yes. A 100 40. So its chief authors, that's Paul Dantz, who was the former chief of staff for Trump's US office of personal management. And then we have Stephen Groves, who was a special assistant to Trump in the White House and an assistant special counsel. So 140 people in the Trump admin contributing to that. I find it very I'm very skeptical that you have that many people who was in who were in his administration signing up to take part of that if Trump wasn't cheerleading that in the background. You know? Totally. And can you and I know this isn't, like, necessarily your area of expertise, but I find that if you go I, don't know why I do this to myself, but I went on to Trump's own website and looked up his agenda 47. And, like, I know that it's not project 2025, and I'm not expecting you to know all the details. But, like, it looks remarkably similar for someone who has nothing to do with project 2025. Some of the rhetoric seems pretty similar just without so much detail because it's Trump. So, obviously, it's not gonna be 922 pages. So why is he distancing himself from this? But then, clearly, like, he he's also starting to, like, lay out conversations that are clearly related. 100%. I think I think Trump is clearly, you know, good at marketing himself. He you know, he he's a masterclass in getting people to vote for him. I mean, he won the election in 2016 when no one thought he would. And I, again, I don't know much about agenda 47 if I'm being honest. However, I I I don't think Trump cares what's in project 2025. You know? I think he cares about the media narrative and how the public is reacting to it. My gut, given his past reactions to different various things, would be if project 2025 was looking like a slam dunk and something that was helping him in the swing states right now, he'd be all over it like, you know, a a kid on cake. And you know? So I think it it really just has to do with that. To your point, his rhetoric, his policies, what he's saying, who he's appointing. If you look at JD Vance's history with LGBTQ, what he's saying, his rhetoric mirrors a lot of what's in project 2025 as well. You know, the folks he appointed in his past administration, Mike Pence, there's receipts we have when he was a politician in Indiana. I don't know if he was governor at the time, but where he was advocating to move funding that goes toward HIV prevention drug medications and push it towards funds that would help cure people of homosexual behavior, conversion therapy. So Trump has a track record of doing whatever he thinks will get the vote. And if that is, you know, abhorrent anti LGBTQ policies in the past, he hasn't shied away from it. And I think that's really something we should we need to be really aware of, you know, and and and and and not shy away from saying out loud. So so it's all so frustrating. You know? I just I can't believe that this is where we are, and these are the conversations that we're having. And I think what really what really terrifies a lot of people, including myself, is just how organized this really is. And I think it's so frustrating as a Democrat I mean, the the breath of fresh air that we have right now over the last few days, I mean, I know that I feel less likely to have a heart attack in the last, week or so. But still, I mean, the the the democrats don't organize in this way under under these principles the way that the far right is clearly organizing 920 some pages. The website is very clear, and, like, it it it looks so polished, and I think that's, like, what's so scary. Then my you know, clearly, these are professionals, but my question is and I know what what they're saying is that Trump will come into office, fire anyone who's essentially not loyal. Right? I mean, that's what it looks like the high the highest levels are. But I guess it's just like, who who can we talk about honestly, before we can get to that question, what are some of the sort of, like, most I don't wanna say, like, the scariest, but the most concerning aspects of project 2025 for the LGBTQ community? Yeah. Yeah. No. And and I think I think, you know, for the most part, it's the idea of who is behind it. This is a 922 page document, but that's what they put out publicly before Trump even gets elected. So day 1 in office, let's implement this 922 document. Let's do whatever it takes to get this done. But if that's backed by the Heritage Foundation, you know, these are groups that are part of this major anti LGBTQ ecosystem. So that means they are major players inside the White House on day 1 in addition to just seeing this 9 22 page document in play. So I think I think we should be focused on, a, what's in the document, but, a, what could be added from the folks who are behind it. But what is in the document is is you know, it's it's honestly hard to discern exactly what they're saying with same sex marriage, this kind of thing. It doesn't look like they're saying in the document that they would ban that or reverse that, And they are aware they need to be careful with that language too, I would imagine, because of what, you know, Americans' public acceptance is as it relates to gay marriage. However, the story with the transgender community is different. So, you know, I'll just read some lines, and I'll let them speak for themselves from the from the document if that if that's okay. So, you know do this? Pornography here here's a line verbatim, right, from the document. Pornography manifested today in the omnipresent propagation of transgender ideology and the sexualization, sexualization, of children, for instance, is up not a political Gordian knot, inextricably binding up disparate claims about free speech, property rights, sexual liberation, and child welfare. It has no claim to first amendment protection. So that's a consistent theme in project 2025 that they claim what they describe as so called transgenderism to be akin to pornography and and hypersexualization. And rather than focusing on it as something related to gender identity, they they equate it with with this, you know, perverted sexual deviance. Right? Another thing they say, you know, bureaucrats at the Department of Justice force school districts to undermine girls' sports and parents' rights to satisfy transgender extremists. So that's their commentary on trans girls and women in playing from sports. One of the mandates is reverse policies that allow transgender individuals to serve in the military. Another thing they say is the next health and human services secretary should immediately put an end to the department's foray into woke transgender activism. And they then go on to describe that the national coverage determination, so I believe this is insurance health care plans, should not cover gender reassignment surgery for anyone, not just for kids, for for all trans folks. So it's a lot of that kind of rhetoric consistent with rolling back protections, regulations, rights for specifically the transgender community. And do you think and, you know, there's no answer to this, but, like, just do you think that the that it's just easier to start with this most vulnerable community and be so explicit, but then just sort of roll out whatever worked against the wider LGBTQ community, if that makes sense. So, like, they can be the most explicit with trans folks because that's where they have kind of the most support in their in their world right now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm really you know, I really try not to even to ever give opinion because I'm trying to maintain that journalistic line. However, however, you know, I think we can look at history and let history inform us, right, of what the Heritage Foundation, what the Alliance Defending Freedom, what these other groups have done in the past, and what they've said. Right? And how they've towed the line for how much you can accept this publicly. And many, you know, experts in the extremist space say, okay. They know, you know, they can pedal this rhetoric about, you know, the transgender community right now because America is still there's a bit of juries out there still with mainstream America. But, you know, that doesn't stop them from litmus testing some of these policies that might be more egregious, you know, maybe coming for gay and lesbian folks, you know, marriage equality, or even, you know, reintroducing ideas of sodomy laws, this sort of thing, right, internationally. So in places where, you know, like Poland had those LGBTQ zones. Right? A few years ago, there was there are connections that can be made to America's anti LGBTQ ecosystem there. The Uganda, Ghana, what's going on there? I I can't for certain say this, but I I know behind the scenes there's a lot of research that is getting very close to solidifying those connections as well. So just because we're focusing on, you know, the trans community for the most part here in the US, doesn't mean that won't change. I mean, we just have to look at what they're doing internationally right now and what they have done on home soil in the past. Yeah. That's really interesting too. You know, the way the same way that people are are saying that, like, you know, Texas, Florida, those are really just sort of trial states for what may be enacted across the US once or if Trump were to win. You know, all the anti LGBTQ rhetoric and and laws being passed in Florida and Texas are just like testing zones for for federal law. It could it that that could be absolutely true. And I think it's important to note too just how much money taxpayers are losing by having all these bills in state legislatures. It costs a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of you know, the courtroom being used for one thing means it's not used for another, and I don't think we think about that enough. And I think it's also important to note, in a lot of these state legislatures where there's the 100 of anti LGBTQ bans playing out, there's a lot of counties that don't even have a trans identifying person. It's it's a nothing burger in a lot of these cases. I was in South Carolina doing a story about a gender affirming health care bill and was in the legislature, and Alliance Defending Freedom comes in. Matt Sharp, the senior legal counsel, who, you know, doesn't live there, lives in Atlanta, and parachutes across the country litigating for very similar bills. Right? He's there. They have a detransitioner there that they're paying to be there. I think that's important to note too. These are expert witnesses that they're paying to be there and that, you know, there's evidence that shows, and we're actually working on a story about this, that they recruit these folks. They recruit these folks online. They cherry pick out detransitioners who had awful experiences and who are anti trans because a lot of detransitioners aren't anti trans. I don't think that's the story we talk about enough. So, you know, I thought it was really interesting that at this in South Carolina, the detransitioner they had was zooming in from Wisconsin. So this isn't even a constituent. And it's not like in these state legislatures, you have constituents banging on their legislature's door saying, please, please. Like, the number one thing I care about is, you know, trans girls in sports and gender affirming health care and bathroom bans and driver's license changes. No. Most folks just care about the pothole getting fixed down the street or their health care or their benefits. You know? Right. I think it's really important for folks regardless of how you vote politically or where you align to really try and be smart about how this is a larger ecosystem that's actually, you know, not just, you know, undermining the rights of LGBTQ folks, but wasting your tax dollars. I mean, I don't wanna go too far off topic. It's just it's just so frustrating. And I guess I guess my takeaway from that is always, like, why do they do that? Because that it's a vulnerable community and because it it gets them talking points and power. I mean, at the end of the day, this is about grabbing power and attention. I think it's a I think it's a bit of both. I I I think that's a really tough question to answer. Like, what is indeed their motivation? And I think it's a bit of both. I think it's there's a lot of folks who just want the power, see it as a, you know, a wedge issue, part of the culture wars. Let's just use it, and we'll get more votes. There's that bucket, but then there's a huge bucket in this country still that inherently believe it. You know? I have a partner. You know? My boyfriend, he he grew up in an evangelical Baptist family. At 17, he came out to his mom, and she said, you coming out as gay is equivalent to you running over in a car accident and not surviving. There are so many kids in this country right now who are trapped in homes with evangelical conservative Christian families who are telling them the devil's inside their body, who are telling them that who they are is a sin, who are telling them they're going to hell or what they're doing is akin to homicide. I've heard all these stories because we're working on some stories about this space. And I think the number one thing that just gives them a get out of jail free card is religious freedom laws, right, in this country. And and you can just throw that in the mix, and you can get away with really abusive behavior. And I think that's another story. Like, we're working on a story we're gonna launch with about Amer Inside America's homeschooling movement. And what happens when conservative Christian parents who who think homosexuality is a complete sin, when you're trapped, when you have no escape, when you have no representation in a public school system, but it's just church, your parents, and now school, you're reading a Jehovah's Witness manual, or you're reading a Mennonite manual, or you're reading a, you know, the bible on evangelism. It's been traumatizing for the people we've talked to who have gone through that. Wow. I mean, this is all so it's just it's so scary, I feel, because I you know, it just seems to be increasing. And, you know, one of the things I worry about in terms of project 2025 is the word pornography. I think that's so loose and could anything could be considered pornography as long as they define it that way. You know, I just wonder if your any of your sources or anyone that you talk to thinks about that because, you know, it's like, can you just call pornography anything that is, like, same sex related? And then through that loophole now to just, like, take away same sex marriage. Because I know one of the things and I I really wanna get to this, actually. So I have the pornography question, but I think there's a lot of people I know in our group who are also just afraid of, like, will our marriage be invalid, and therefore, will our parenting be invalid? Will we not be considered the parents if we are are the non bio parent of our of our children? So really just, like, 2 huge questions just throw it. Yeah. Yeah. And and I don't know the answer to either of those. You know, those aren't crystal crystal clear. Right? But I think it's really dangerous when you you know, what you see from project 2025 is the comparison and the conflation of identifying as transgender and pornography, which are 2 completely different things, obviously. But when you start including those two words in the sentence, people who like the Heritage Foundation start to believe it. And the truth is, you know, they write the rules. If if if this becomes the White House, right, and the and and and the bible for the White House and and, you know, if if Trump gets elected, his administration's future policy, right, anything can happen. So I think that would be kinda the same thing as that conflation could turn into any image of trans folks could be considered pornography. I don't see I don't I don't know the legal system well enough to know if that would be able to go in, but Right. I don't know. I I I I wouldn't I wouldn't find it surprising if folks who wrote that document tried to do that, and that's scary. You know? Right. Yeah. When people in that that level of power are are are are are capable of that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of, like, you know, 2 legs good, 4 legs better, you know, or whatever. Four legs good, 2 legs better. I mean, it's sort of just like the shifting idea of what is and isn't the definition of something that is really scary to me because I just find that's the way that they will redefine what is and isn't legal or accepted. Just one thing on that, if it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to know that to your point about language. Language is really important. And, you know, I wrote an article on for Rolling Stone a few months ago on on how Mike Johnson, speaker of the house Mike Johnson, spent up to 10 years at the alliance defending freedom. Right? He's written op eds before that have compared homosexuality to marrying giving the right to marry your pet or your or or a pedophile to marry. A cat or a dog or a pedophile. That to us. He's that's he's second in line to the president right now. It's Kamala Harris and then Mike Johnson right now. So I think that's important to note that when you have people who hold those ideologies and they're that powerful, they can make the rules to a large extent, and that's dangerous. Cool. Yeah. No. It is. It is so dangerous. And I didn't really ever put that together before that, like, that is really the 3rd person in line who already has that rhetoric. So project 2025, yes or no, whether or not it passes, you know, or, you know, what whether or not Trump wins. But, yeah, it's it's already that high up in our system, the the rhetoric. Yeah. Great. It is. It's it's a little wild. Yeah. It's it is a little wild. Yeah. So I think what what people wanna know I know from from our community and and, again, you might not be able to answer or opine on this, but maybe there is some sort of precedent that you can help us understand. But it's just like, how quickly can these things come into play? So say Trump wins. Because I think what people are trying to figure out for expats is which I know you are 1, but for some reason, you're still here. Don't you wanna flee? Is is like okay. So, like, November 6th, day after the election, you know, things things go that way, and Trump wins. And January 20th, he comes into office, but that's not enough time to, like, plan a move. You know? But I think I think it's important for people who are who are listening or watching this is that you won't be able to to claim asylum in another country. Just because Trump wins and project 2025 goes into place, it's not like you're gonna be able to go be, you know, considered a refugee or claim asylum in another country. That will would be something that will take ages, and you will be in in a line through organizations like Rainbow Railroad of you know, they get 15,000 applicants per year that they even can track. And, you know, if you wanna claim asylum somewhere, you'll be in in a line of of those thousands of people even if we can be considered that to other countries. So we need to make our own plan and act, you know, with empowerment, but it takes more than 2 months to move usually abroad unless you literally flee. It's, like, a really long winded question, set up to the question, which is just like, how fast can these sort of ideas be then put into law? Well, Trump could sign executive orders on day 1. Like, that's and that's that's how fast that I think they they say it's gonna happen immediately. Right? I think there's an immediacy to the project, and that's why it was published, I think, over a year ago now. Right? So I think if if if if Trump wants to do it right? And who knows based on what he's saying in the last few weeks. But if Trump wants to do it, I think it can be done very, very quickly. What can be done very, very quickly? Like, what he can just what can he do? Well, how can he wave his wand and make it so? What can he make reverse and and, you know, these are really, really complicated questions too. I know. And I'm expecting you to know everything. No. No. No. No. It's okay. It's just there's just the because the you know, especially the what he can and can't do is so complicated and so layered. But for a lot of executive orders, for example, right, the ban on trans folks from serving in the military was overturned. Right? That can be, I believe, you know, reversed immediately. And and that's typically what does happen on a lot of these policies that, you know, the person in power's party is completely in line with. As as, like, a way of getting a headline in the first few days of office, Biden did or Trump did, they will reverse those things, or they'll sign things that they know these are low hanging fruit. Let's do it. And the fear I have is that a lot of the things in project 2025 that I read out, you know, especially about the transgender community, are low hanging fruit for a lot of Trump supporters. So it would be something he'd be incentivized to do very quickly if the if his base or if folks who voted for him feel a certain way about it. Right. And the question is really how does he handle his power? So he he gets elected, and day 1, he can put he like, he said, I'll be I won't be a dictator except for day 1. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I think it's the people he surrounds himself with. And we can just look at who he chose as vice president. You know? JD Vance is called, you know, teachers and parents who affirm their child's gender identity or sexual orientation or even just educate them about that groomers. So I think it's really important to think about who he's surrounding himself with. And today, it's the JD Vance's, and it's the Heritage Foundations. Yeah. Which, you know, this is just my own personal opinion, and no one's here for that. But, like, JD Vance, you know, up until a few years ago, absolutely did not think those things and did not say those things. And then very, very quickly and with no explanation why shifted his entire rhetoric to this very, like you're saying, low hanging fruit. And I think that that's what is frustrating and terrifying, and we all know that, is, like, you know, what people will do for power, what they will do just to get on TV, and then what they will do just to to become VP. You know what I'm saying? Hill Hillbilly Elegy is one of my favorite books. No. I was a fan of that, honestly. Like I liked it a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and, you know, when he first started you might start seeing him at first. I was like, oh, this guy's kind of interesting. And now I can't even believe it. Okay. So there's it's really hard to know the timeline except January 20th. It could be that a lot of things are put into play, and that's really all we know at this point in time is that, like, basically, they're telling us in 900 plus pages what they would like to do in terms of the Heritage Foundation. And what I'm hearing right now is that, obviously, none of those people are in an administration yet. But from the time Trump takes office, when, you know, when he starts appointing people, from that day, he could hire all 140 of the of the authors of the document right back into his office as they were however many years ago. And so it could it could all take place. We don't I guess what I'm hearing is, like, we don't actually know any more specifics in terms of, like, what will or won't happen definitely for the LGBTQ community. Exactly. And I'm seeing I don't know if this question's to me, but I'm seeing somebody say came to specifics about the actual contents in the document. I mean, to respond to that, like, beyond what I read that was verbatim from the document, it there is a lot that is just frankly unknown. And there's a lot of headlines coming from all areas of the media right now saying it will do this or it won't do this or it's gonna legalize this, this kind of thing. We just there's a lot we don't know, but I think really investigating the actual 922 page document and saying what's written there, who's behind it, what have they done in the past for LGBTQ, I think can inform what could happen. Because a lot are question marks if you actually just set the receipts and timelines and and screenshots of it all. You know? Who are the other major players involved in this? Because I was on the, the the Heritage Foundation's website looking at project 2025 today in preparation for this, and I saw them, you know, exclaiming that there are now, like, 100 partner ed partner members or whatever involved in project 2025. And you've you've mentioned so far, obviously, the Heritage Foundation and a couple of others. But, you know, if we need to if we need to understand what might happen, who else can we research that is involved in this heavily? Do you happen to know who the other major players are in this? The other major players, they're working target 2025. They're working in conjunction with other groups like family policy council, alliance defending freedom, this sort of thing. So, you know, it is the entire ecosystem that's behind it. And, you know, I saw somebody else say, I don't think we need to worry about it. I would be I I'm skeptical of that. You know? I I think it is important to really consider what's in there. And, sure, the 922 page document might not get in there on day 1. But like you said, Jess, earlier, right, the rhetoric that they're saying at the RNC, the rhetoric that they're saying when they're doing, you know, interviews on Fox News in the space where that rhetoric is acceptable, mimics and mirrors project 2025. So regardless of whether or not Trump says he's part of it or he's gonna move away from it or just throw it in the garbage can and forget, that doesn't change the messaging. That doesn't change what could actually become law. And I really believe that there's nothing in terms of what he said that has distanced himself from the content in project 2025 beyond him saying the title is not to be affiliated with me. So I think that's an important thing to consider. Yeah. And I you know, and I'll just go ahead and say, you know, it is in in the aggregates of every queer person that I talk to is it is important to understand it because this will directly affect us. And unless we are informed again, you know, with every single thing that could possibly happen and understanding those eventualities, we will we really truly can't fight back against it once he once he does win and come into power. Information is power, and there is really no other way to get around it. If Trump comes into power, this this is a very organized effort. It it will come into action. Mhmm. Mhmm. It it it very well could. You know? And and I think, like, beyond that in terms of what we can do, because I saw another question there too. Yes. I'm just about to ask you that question. Please go ahead. What else can folks so the should I just read it out? Or Yeah. Go ahead. Sure. Okay. So so I think Linda Villam, I can't see anyone, so I hope I'm pronouncing that right. You know, besides voting and educating myself and others around me, what else can we do? What action can we take? How can we contribute to the change we are trying to make? Well, my biggest thing is there's just so little information. I was writing a mission statement, and we're really in an LGBTQ news desert right now. The amount of power that's coming out against our community from the anti LGBTQ ecosystem is so powerful and so fierce and so well funded that I mean, that's obviously why I'm starting on closeted media. It's to have kind of, you know, a consistent news source to actually educate the public and a big goal. And and this this, I don't think any queer publications ever done is to get to get outside of the LGBTQ echo chamber in terms of who we're targeting. So Yeah. A goal of ours is to partner with organizations like USA Today, like places that reach middle America. So center left, center right. Obviously, far right, you know, aren't even gonna engage with LGBTQ storytelling, but I think just, you know, educating, contributing, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, I think right now, it's it's really just doing everything we can to make sure that, you know, Kamala essentially gets or miss Harris, vice president Harris. I've heard I'm not I'm not supposed to say Kamala because only women are referred to by their first name. So vice president Harris is elected. Right? I mean, really, you know, pound the pavement, go talk to people, do everything you can to get the word out and get people to vote. I don't know what what else you can really do at this point. That's why for me, you know, I'm talking to a lot of people. It's just like right now, maybe a plan b strategy. But what do you think, you know, as someone who is not a US citizen, who does live here, who is a career expat? And this you know, hopefully, I can ask you this question in your personal capacity, not as your, from a journalist perspective. But what do you think about the idea? Because we had a little bit of a debate in our group recently about, you know, staying and fighting once and if Trump wins versus saying, you know what? I don't I don't wanna be in this environment. I don't wanna raise my kids in this environment. I'm going to feel safer by moving to another country. What do you what do you think about that, especially as a an expat living here in the United States? Yeah. I mean, as an expat who covers the LGBTQ community, you know, my my gut says I'm staying and fighting. You know? Okay. Yeah. I'm saying and hovering, and I'm saying and reporting on this. Because if I go back to Canada, you know, obviously, it's definitely not perfect there. I'll say that, but it's a lot better. It's a lot better. It's a lot more progressive when it comes to LGBTQ rights, like significantly so, I would say. There's some of that export happening. You know, our most conservative just introduced a whole, pamphlet of anti trans policies. But, no, for me, it's stand fight. But I think I don't know. My advice would be, you know, if it's if it's if if if you're in a place that's taking stripping away your rights and there's no major stake in what you do, get the hell out. Some of the some of the, a lot of the countries, like, are so much more far ahead when it comes to LGBTQ rights. So I don't know. My perspective is unless there's a real you're ready to, you know, fight in a meaningful way. I don't know. On in 2016, I know Canada's immigration website broke after Yeah. The the first few hours kind of thing. So No. It's it's that's absolutely right. I probably contributed to a lot of that myself. Many, many times. No. No. No. That's right. And I you know, I think to each his own and, you know, there was a there was a, like, a a little bit of a name calling debate that we then got we handled because I think people feel really strongly on both sides of this. But I think it's just about, like, informing yourself as much as possible and then putting a plan into action of, like, what, you know, what would you do if this turned into, like, a worst case scenario situation? And how can you contribute? And who are you? And, also, I feel it's different if you if you are, like, a single person or, you know, you have a family to think about or all those things. You know, it there's a lot of there's a lot of factors to consider. So I guess what I'm hearing really that's kind of scary is that in theory, a lot of this could be day 1. A lot of this action could be day 1 because, you know, I really wanted to ask about that timeline and everything. But some of this could be day 1. Some of it could be 18 months down the road. But there really is no clear cut answer right now to what you're saying in terms of, like, how how quickly this will be rolled out against the LGBTQ. Correct. Because it depends on exactly how you how each policy comes into play. Right? Like, if it's DOJ, if it's HHS, you know, some of the different departments I listed, like, I don't know their scheduling for that, but I believe that a lot in a lot of cases, you can simply overturn, you know, executive orders policies as fast as you want if you're the president. Yeah. That's, yeah, that's crazy. Okay. Well alright. So is there anything going on sort of behind the scenes? Are you hearing any other whispers or conversations? You've talked a lot about other articles that you're also working on or that you have worked on. But what are some other sort of, like, whispers, or what are things that, like, I don't even know what to ask you or that we're not thinking about in terms of how the LGBTQ community will be affected should a new administration come in at a budget? I mean, I think what's what's interesting for me is that Trump still has a, you know, big kind of gay following, and he's actually trying to get pink money and doing so. He had a fundraiser in New York a few weeks ago where he raised a couple$1,000,000 at least, and that's supposed to go to, you know, swing states to get the gay vote. Right? And it's funny because it's not funny at all. And it's interesting because they characterize it as going for gays and lesbians. They interestingly don't list transgender folks there, and they built with the help of the Log Cabin Republicans. Let me get it for y'all, which is the, you know, biggest gay organization for Republican folks in the US. They built a website that's kinda looks like a news website ish, and I'm sending that to everyone else called Get Outspoken. And this is a Trump and Log Cabin Republicans created website website. Right? And it's all, like, characterizing the Democratic party as doing horrible things for for the LGBTQ community. Right? So some of the headlines that you might see if you have the link open is the time the tax man come for glad. Right? Biden leaves behind an awkward political tangle on transgender youth. Right? And I think to most Americans, this just looks like a news website. It kinda looks like a trusted reliable source for folks who care about, you know, right wing politics. Right? But this was created by the Trump administration to characterize Democrats as the kind of worst vote when it comes to LGBTQ. When if you line up receipts, that's obviously not the case. So I think it's important to consider that, you know, Trump's strategy is not to ignore gay and lesbian folks. He's still going for our money and getting some. Yeah. Which, you know, I that have a really hard time understanding how people vote and get involved in things that are clearly against their best interests. I I have a hard time with this. So I'm looking at this website right now, out get outspoken.com. I don't I don't know why we're plugging it. I shouldn't even be be giving, like, the full the full website. But it is it is truly terrifying because it really does look like a news website, and it has all the elements of a news website. And the other thing that's so interesting to me is that it has it has this rhetoric that, like, you know, a decade ago or 15 years ago, thanks to the crazies, even fewer Democrats now support gay marriage. That lazy writing would never have worked. But now that Trump we're so used to how Trump talks, that seems like a news headline. You know? That actually seems like legitimate copy that's one could one could read. Bleak and has a good logo and looks it just looks like it belongs here. Yeah. Yeah. And it's and it's part of exactly what you were talking about is this, like, deep ecosystem of content and organization that is so clearly anti LGBTQ, but it makes it it just makes it seem like this actually makes it seem like it's for us. Like, it's it's in our favor and so Mhmm. And so Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and and, we're writing a story about this. So we're writing about Trump's as pretty much an explainer on Trump's strategy on getting pink money and how how the hell brackets it's working. Interesting. Very interesting. Yeah. That's really that's that's scary. And and I think it's how does he how do they even think to do that, I guess? Like, how it's so crazy to me that they're like, let let's go get pink money even though we are constantly talking against their best interests, and that and they're still getting 1,000,000 of dollars. Yeah. No. Well, I think there's a lot of internalized homophobia in this country. Right? Like, remember, a lot of the people who come out, they're born in these conservative Christian environments. Right? And you're indoctrinated to a large extent to believe that one party is good and the other party is evil. So maybe you come out as gay, but you still are affiliated with that party. You find out it's spoken, and it's confirmation bias. Right. Yes. You're in that echo chamber. If you can't leave that echo chamber, everything becomes, you know, confirmation bias. You only watch Fox News. You only hear from the, you know, MAGA world that you're insulated in in your town. Like, it just doubles and triples down to where you're, you know, going on get outspoken and donating. Right. No. Yep. Absolutely right. When you are doing your research and your team is preparing articles and everything, and I I do wanna give you a chance to just talk a little bit about how people can get involved with, closeted. But what are your what are your resources? What journalists do you look at who do reporting? Where are you getting your information? What resources can we also go look at as primary source material to keep ourselves informed of how this is all moving forward? Mhmm. Mhmm. I mean, it's tough because, again, you know, LGBTQ news desert. There isn't a ton of places that are doing consistent rigorous coverage. Right? I rely really on, you know, built like, I find we find story ideas through what's already out there through, you know, digging that kind of stuff, but we really rely on primary sources. So that's Google Scholar. That's, you know, actual, like, legitimate sources. And, you know, we built everything's completely originally reported from us. Right? So I I I'm I'm I'm hesitant to even suggest one source. But, you know, the idea of journalistic balance right now in the US specifically is really, you know, a Republican sound bite and a Democrat sound bite divided by 2. That is not what we're aiming to do at Unfortunate Media at all. We I believe that the definition of balance should be review of methodologically sound evidence based research. Right? Lay that all out on the table and let the reader view or decide. I think there's very few places that don't include bias of some kind, and I don't I think I think we're underestimating how smart Americans are that they can read and sniff that out. So our goal is to just prevent present, sorry, you know, nonpartisan objective work, but through the lens of methodologically sound evidence based research. I'm, again, totally sold. I'm a huge fan of the work that you're doing. It is such a gap, the market, and in our own knowledge as queer folks empowering ourselves. And so I would like to use Uncloseted Media as my primary source moving forward. A nice little Yes. So tell me. So September 3rd. So where can people find you, and, you know, what else would you like to share about the future launch of Uncloseted? Yeah. So we are launching September 3rd, and you can find us at unclosetedmedia.com. The site will be soft launching August 1st. So you don't see anything there yet. But August 1st, we're gonna soft launch. And, again, we have, you know, Charles Kaiser. I don't know if I said that. He worked at the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Newsweek. He founded the NLGJ, the National Lesbian Gay Journalists Association, in 1990. So he's recently come on board as my deputy as managing editor. And then we have 7 fantastic, tough interns, all from NYU grad and undergrad students in journalism, and they are really fantastic. And us as a team are developing 20 stories right now, all original was 10. We're at 20 now. Oh my gosh. You are working too hard. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. We have you know? And and and one is about project 2025 and the LGBTQ implications. Right? One is about Trump's strategy. Another one is, you know, I'll just give you guys some headlines. One is, why do 9 southern poverty law center anti LGBTQ hate groups have special consultative status inside the United Nations? Why? Mhmm. Why do conservative Christians when googling resources for their trans or gay kids on Google come up with conversion therapy websites from Google's algorithm. There's a lot of low hanging fruit. We have election stories, health care stories, legal stories, political stories, religious stories, and we're also gonna do stories that elevate the everyday American heroes in this country. So it's not all gonna be a sob story. We're gonna do stories of, you know, dads of trans kids who are fighting inside state legislatures for their kids to get the health care they deserve. We're gonna do stories about teachers who refuse to not say gay in their classrooms. We're gonna do stories a story on an Appalachian youth summit in the middle of West Virginia next month where queer kids are gonna get lessons on how to push back against lawmakers because so many adults are coming for them, which I find fascinating. So, yeah, keep an eye out. August 1st is our soft launch, and that's when you'll be able to subscribe. We're gonna live through Substack, and then September 3rd is our hard launch. We are working through a fiscal sponsor. So we're a 501c3 model in a deep fundraising stage right now. So if if anyone does have the means and are interested in contributing, if it's okay, I'd to put the link, in this chat. Yeah. Totally. I'll put the link in the in the show notes too if this goes out to a wider audience. Yes. Fantastic. Yeah. And it's a it's a fiscal sponsor, so you just click from the drop down menu, Uncloseted Media, and and any and all contributions are are we're super grateful for those. We raised about 200,000, and we really to do this well for over the course of a year, we need to get to about 500. So we're slow but sure. So any little bit helps. Yeah. Absolutely. Great. I mean, I'm I'm happy to share the link. I think it's really important work. Like I said, the minute that I met you, the minute you reached out to me, I knew this is exactly something that I wanted to support as well. So, you know, I I really think this is something when people were asking before that particular question was about what else can we do. I think that that this is also something that we can do is to support your work because, again, no one is centering us in these conversations. Even when it comes to project 2025, the LGBTQ aspect of it is not necessarily being centered in the in the conversation. So you and your team are doing that work. I really appreciate it. If people do have questions, we can hang out for just a second. Otherwise, I wanna thank you really, Spencer, for coming on, answering these questions. And it's frustrating. I think I think the message at the end of the day and and I is that we don't know everything yet because it's not clear. And I just don't think that we as queer folks should should adopt a wait and see model. I think that we don't have the luxury of just waiting and seeing how it might play out. So whether that's creating a plan b, creating a strategy to maybe bring your family or whatever to safety, to stay and fight, to donate, to do whatever it is you need to do, I just don't think we have the luxury of adopting a a wait and see model. No. And and and, you know, this may sound like shameless plug, but, you know, I think, you know, Kamala Harris raised$81,000,000 in in 2 days. Right? But I really believe, especially in the social media world where we need the younger vote, an article or 2 that goes viral can have a lot more impact than a political ad in many cases, right, when it's rooted in that methodologically sound evidence. Right? So I really think that, you know, solid journalistic trusted articles, the we're not used to going about this from a nonprofit news model just yet because we're we're we're veering into that space only over the last few years. But I really strongly believe that the impact of a dollar can go a lot further in this space because we don't have the education for people to understand the ecosystem. So if we don't understand it, you get gays and lesbians voting for Trump on get outspoken.com through misinformation. So, anyways, that's my little rant, but I'm really grateful you you to to speak with you. It's been really nice. Yeah. Definitely. Thanks again for being here. And, yes, I I hope that this was useful for everyone. We'll definitely post a replay link for anyone who missed it. And, Spencer, good luck to you. I know you have a lot more to raise, but it sounds like you are doing fascinating work, and I can't wait to to keep being a part of this. I am very, very excited for you. Thank you. Alright. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Spencer. I hope you are inspired. I hope you inspired. I hope you wanna do what you can here. As he said, you can find him at onclosetedmedia.com, and the link to donate is also in the description of this podcast. It's a PayPal link through an organization that helps 501c3 nonprofits take donations properly. So it's actually a PayPal link. You'll go to the drop down menu, choose uncloseted media, and you can donate there. And if you're thinking about creating your own exit strategy, a plan b, getting things in place just in case the election doesn't go your way, or if you're just finally ready to do this and take the leap and you don't know how to go about doing this alone, we have something great to do as a group. So think about joining our 90 day exit strategy cohort. And what cohort really means is this is a small group program. These are people doing this together with you at the same time. So in 90 days, you will know where you're moving abroad, when, why, and how to move somewhere and actually thrive. You'll get biweekly sessions with me, 60 minutes of presentation on certain topics to make sure you understand them, plus 30 minutes of q and a if you guys want it, so up to 90 minutes at a time with me. You'll also get weekly action based tasks so you actually get things done. And you'll be in this small cohort, no more than 11 other future queer expats or allies. Everyone's looking to do the same thing and take the same action. So there's a community chat on WhatsApp, and then you can chat day and night with them, 20 4 7 access. And I'll jump in once a day as well and answer any outstanding questions for the day. So you'll have a community of future expats all doing the same thing at the same time and then, of course, also access to me. You can do this in an asynchronous way, meaning if you can't make all the live Zooms or whatever, that's totally fine. We're all super busy. So you can watch those videos afterward. You can do the tasks at on your own time. But you could also do everything live and just jump right in and be a super active part of this cohort. Either way, all the information that you need will be there and you don't have to feel alone. We're actually on a wait list right now. So if you just join the wait list, go to rainbowreload.comforward/90 days. I'll notify you about the new cohort opening. I think it's gonna open up mid September, maybe late September. So go to rainbowrelo.comforward/90 days, and you will find information there to join. You can find that link, rainbow reload.comforward/90 days, also in the podcast description. Otherwise, you can join our free Facebook community, Queer Expats Worldwide. You can ask questions in there. You can comment. You can meet people who are looking to do the same thing as you. And, of course, if you like this podcast and you think it's really useful, please leave a rating or a review so we can reach more folks and share it with any other queer people who are looking to live a more global life. And until next time, this is Jess Drucker, and you've been listening to the Adventure Calls podcast.