What Is It Actually Like to Move To Portugal, with LGBTQ+ expats Sue Reddel and Diana Laskaris

Over the past few weeks, Google searches around How To Move Abroad have skyrocketed, up more than 1000% percent overall.

And many of those searches, especially for the LGBTQ+ community, are geared toward Portugal. Between the D-8 Digital Nomad visa and the D-7 retirement / non-lucrative visa, Portugal has made it onto every future expats radar.

But what is it actually like to live there? Just because you might be able to get a visa to move there, do you want to?

That’s where Sue and Diana come in. Sue Reddel and Diana Laskaris are a married couple who moved to Portugal in 2021 from the States. They moved with their two elderly cats and made a life for themselves. The duo are former corporate executives who jumped off the ladder and into entrepreneurship roughly a decade ago, and now they work remotely from Portugal and run Food Travelist, a food and travel publication.

The pair are avid travelers, but Sue had never lived abroad before this move. So what has it been like to move to this beautiful, coastal Southern European country?

That’s what we get into in this episode.

This conversation was recorded inside our Queer Expats Worldwide community on Facebook, and shared with you here. It is a bit longer than our usual episodes, but because of the popularity of Portugal as a possible relocation destination, we wanted to share it with you in its entirety.

To access more interviews like this and a very active community of  LGBTQ+ folks and families, join our Queer Expats Worldwide community.

Sue and Diana can be found at:

Website: Food Travelist
Instagram: @foodtravelist
Facebook community: Queer Women and Friends in Portugal 

Links mentioned in this episode:
Transport your larger animals abroad for your move with barkair.com

Sue and Diana have written two books:
101 Tips for Moving To Portugal 
What Should I Do Now? 

Rainbow Relocation Strategies:
Find out how to work with us at: Rainbow Relocation Strategies
Instagram: @rainbowrelo
Book: How To Move Abroad
Queer Expats Worldwide Facebook Community

Your host, Jessica Drucker, can be found online at jessicadrucker.com

The Adventure Calls podcast is a bi-weekly podcast that seeks to empower queer folks to move, live and thrive abroad with interviews with relocation experts, queer expats who have successfully relocated and other organizations that give a lens on the LGBTQ+ experience in the world.

Transcript

0:10

Welcome back to the Adventure Calls podcast. This is Jess Drucker. I'm your host. I'm also the founder of Rainbow Relocation Strategies. We empower queer folks and their families to move, live and thrive abroad. And that's what we try to do with this podcast, too. The Adventure Calls podcast has taken its turns over the years talking in general to expats about what it's like to move abroad, inspiring others to do the same. But I truly believe that now, more than ever, the work really is in empowering queer folks to understand how they can move around the world in a way that's actually possible and not something that you just hear from any influencer online who may have done it too. So I hope that all of these interviews that you hear in the coming months are as useful as possible. And I really think that today's interview is going to be as useful as possible for you, especially if you're interested in moving to Portugal. I get so many questions every day about whether it's possible to move to Portugal and what it takes and how people do it because it's one of the most attractive places for queer folks to move. It's in Europe. Portugal is a coastal country, meaning it's just tons of coastline and it's absolutely beautiful. It can be much cheaper than other countries in Europe. The visas that are available are good for all different kinds of jobs. The digital nomad visa is very attractive to many people. It's called the d eight visa. And because it's relatively affordable and people live there for up to 5 years on this visa with renewals, there's actually a pathway to citizenship, meaning on the d eight digital nomad visa in Portugal, you can actually accrue years that add up to being able to apply to become an actual citizen of the country. So this is why people love considering Portugal as a place to move to, especially right now, and it's definitely queer friendly. Even though Portugal is 80% Catholic, it's a very relaxed type of culture in terms of how they look at sexuality. There's no preachiness about anything. LGBTQ folks are definitely welcome in Portugal. And today, I'm bringing you a conversation with Sue Riddell and Diana Lascaris. They are a married couple in now in their sixties. They moved to Portugal 3 years ago, and they explain kind of what it was like for them to actually move to Portugal. The 2 of them are professionals. They hopped off the very top of a career ladder a few years ago in individual industries, both of them. And they are entrepreneurs now. They have been for many years. They relocated during COVID, and we had many conversations during that time when they were relocating. But now they bring three and a half years worth of experience, hindsight, and advice to everyone listening on today's podcast. This conversation actually took place in our Facebook group, Queer Expats Worldwide. That's where we now have over 33 100 members. And just for some perspective, before the 2024 presidential election, we had about 700 members, and it was a good mix of current expats and hopeful expats, people looking to move abroad. Now the group is about 33100 people who are eager eager to learn how to move abroad, and there is so much conversation going on inside this group. So if you haven't joined it already and if you are LGBTQ, if you have kids who are LGBTQ, or you are an ally, you are welcome to join our Facebook community, Queer Expats Worldwide. And there is a ton of conversation going on right now about how to move, live, and thrive abroad. But for now, I'd like you to hear this conversation we had inside the community with Sue and Diana. It's super helpful. We talk about all kinds of topics related to what it's actually like to live in Portugal. It's not romanticizing it at all whatsoever. And if you are at all interested in figuring out how you can move abroad and you wanna create for yourself an exit strategy, please check out rainbowrelo.com. That's rainbowrel0.com. We are there to help you with exactly this. But for now, please enjoy this podcast, what it's really like to move to Portugal with Sue Bredell and Diana Lascaris. You live in Portugal. Please introduce yourselves, and then I'm gonna make us go all the way back to the beginning here, and then we'll get to the part where people can start to ask questions. But what I don't wanna do is turn this into a conversation where at the beginning, we just jump into the weeds and start talking about taxes. You know? Like, I I wanna I wanna frame this as, like, the the the point of this video and the point of this conversation with everyone in our group is, like, what is it actually like to move to Portugal? Because I think for those of you who don't know me, by the way, my name is Jess Drucker. I'm the founder of the Queer X Pass Worldwide Community and of Rainbow Relocation Strategies, and, I help queer people and their families move, live, and thrive abroad. So, I call myself a dream crusher sometimes. Sometimes you have a dream about moving abroad and what I what my goal here is to help make this a reality for everyone who wants to do it. I know that we're all now thinking about moving out of fear, which is the worst place that you can do anything from. And so conversations like this, especially with these two people, you couldn't be luckier, are about empowerment. So I want us to move from a place of fear to a place of empowerment and just understand the realities. Like, life in Portugal, what is it really like? And we have 2 experts here today. I'm gonna have you guys introduce yourselves and just tell us, like, where you live and sorta how long you've already been in Portugal for. Okay. I am Sue Riddell, and I'm Diana Lascaris. And we live in Stril, Portugal, which is third about 30 minutes, west of Lisbon in about a 5 minute drive from Cascais, you know, which is right on the coast. So we live in a smaller town, which is right next door to Cascais. We're known as the Riviera. That's right. Of Portuguese. Riviera. Portugal. You know? So, you know, we live in a pretty nice pretty nice area. Lovely. And how long have you been in Portugal now? Three and a half years, Jessica. Can you believe that? No. I can't. I can't. I mean, we should say it too that we've been talking to you since when we were still living in the United States. So you know the whole story. Yeah. You sure have. I will say that I'm first of all, how do we know each other? Honestly? Okay. Honestly, I was just thinking of this when you were when you were introducing yourself. I met you on a webinar during the pandemic that you gave about moving abroad for wits. Oh, yes. Which I just Wonderful. I should say. I don't know if it was wonderful or wits. One of the one of the 2. And you and I it's like I think and there wasn't a ton of people on there because it was a pandemic, but, you know, people I don't think people are really thinking like that. But we were already in process, you know, moving. And I remember I was, like, asking you some questions, but I'm like, oh, we've already done that. Oh, yeah. We've already done that. I was like, miss know it all. Right? You know? And so, yeah, Jake was with our cat. Did move with our cat. So we could talk about pet. Yeah. Relocation. This is a queer call. So there's animals in every room, probably. Jake has not met a Zoom call he did not did not like. So right. Wanna interfere in. But that's how he met. So you and I, you know, talked a lot during your webinar. I think probably more than that. We probably probably monopolized it. You know? That's right. And then, you know, I reached out to you afterwards and said, hey. You know, we're we're actually moving. You know, what else can we do together? Blah blah. You know? And here we are. Exactly. It's funny because at the time, I was more of an expert than you. And now, especially when it comes to one of the most popular places I feel like everybody wants to move, you all are truly experts. And also, I think it's important to note as we talk about everything today, like, not only are you you're experts because you've done it. You're experts because you have traveled the world already and you run Food Travelists and such, which I should actually let you guys get to your bios. But you're also truly here to help in a way that is not just, like, motivated by capitalizing on the fears of people moving. And this is something we we all really care about is that there's so many people out there who are just kinda going for a quick buck right now. And so everything we say here today is, like, in a fiduciary capacity. Okay? We are really here to to help. Okay. But please so Sue, Rodell, and Diana. Diana, please explain a little bit about what you guys do. How do you actually live in Portugal? What are your professions? And, you know, what what is it that you actually do? Who are you guys? Well, that's a very, interesting question. We, like a lot of people, have been self employed for quite some time. Sue used to be a big big high powered mucky market and global advertising agency. I was an attorney and had several other interests in writing in particular. And, sort of several years before we even contemplated moving, we both moved to kind of a virtual business model, which is essential, in my opinion, if you need to continue to have an income while you're in Portugal. It is very, very difficult to get a job here. There are a few exceptions if you come in. The golden visa situation has changed. People used to be able to purchase a piece of property, and it wasn't really streamlining, but, you know, there were some benefits to it. Now that has turned into a sort of an investment in cultural and scientific Right. Ventures in in in and there are some ways that if you're a professional, they are trying to increase the number of people who are active professionals in certain capacities. And so there are some, you know, ways to get in through that. But generally speaking, especially for Americans, I would say, if you need a source of income, you need to try and figure that out before you move because it just counting on it happening while you're here, it's very difficult. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you need to know that it's not like, oh, I'll just go get a job. You know? It doesn't work that way. Well, it also doesn't work that way because you need to get in on a visa. You can't just move to Portugal. And so the visa that you get, you have to show income for. Correct. You can't get an a 90 day visa, just a tourist visa if you, you know, are able if you already have things set up or something like that, it's possible. Right. You know? And there there's so many convoluted ways that people come here, but we'll just keep it to the basics. So Sue and I both were operating visual, virtual, businesses, And that made it much easier because all of the people of my clients and and my various businesses and all of the people that Sue was consulting for and so on and teaching university, courses online, it didn't matter where we were in the world. So we were virtual, workers or digital nomads without the nomadicness. Right. Correct. Right? Yeah. So we're just remote workers, if you wanna call it that. So when we moved, that part of our life was not disrupted at all. The rest of it, I have to say, we were fortunate. It was a terrible time. We moved during the pandemic, but the advantages for us were that a lot of the things that people now have to go in person for to go to a VFS meeting or to, you know, do some of these things. We did most of it online. Right. In Wisconsin, where we were before we left, they didn't have, electronic fingerprinting. You need to get FBI fingerprints. And so we actually had to go into a police station. There was only one police station in all of the towns near us, and they only did it one day a month. And it happened to be the day I called up to ask, when can we get fingerprints? And they said, well, between, you know, 10 AM and noon today. So we I I I hightailed it over there, and it was, but there are a lot of things that you can anticipate and whatever you expect, there's going to be something that goes wrong or something. So you have to have an attitude of flexibility Yeah. And not get derailed because there are many, many moving parts to this. And as soon as you think you have one thing done, something else comes up. Some of the requirements that require documents to be there aren't a lot of documents that need to be, notarized, but there are some documents they're few, And there are some that need to, you know, you have to send in your for example, if you wanna get your driver's license exchanged, you have to have, you know, the the state approve it and and go through this whole process so you get a document. Some documents need to be translated in both language. You know? There's a lot of paperwork. Mhmm. But if we can do it, honest to gosh, anybody can do it. Yeah. I mean, it's it's truly like a project manager's project. You know, you you really are project managing all of these moving parts. And, you know, if you like a Gantt chart, this will be easier for you. But if you don't, yeah, it can be it can be really, really challenging to keep track of everything that you need to keep track of. Can I ask you? We've obviously talked in a lot of detail about all this, but, like, what was it for you that made you think that Portugal was the right choice? That's your story. Yeah. I feel like I've told this story a 100 times this week. Let me add something to it then. Then why Portugal? What what made it? And then, like, how much of that was real after you landed? Oh, that that's a good that's a good second to follow-up on that. But as you mentioned, you know, we have one of our businesses is food travelers. We're food food and travel writers. We have a website, you know, food travels.com. I was invited on a press trip to Portugal, you know, and I came here a lot of times because Diane and I do work together on that business. A lot of times, destinations will invite us, but only one person can come. Right? Because the budget, you know, just you know, this, you know, the budget only allows for one person. So I was the designated, you know, traveler that time, and I had never been to Portugal before. This was in 2017, and we landed in Lisbon, and there was kind of a mock up at the airport, but no big thing. We you know, our first stop was Ovidos, which is a very quaint and medieval walled city in Portugal. And I was there. Everybody else on the trip, you know, decided they were gonna go, you know, take a nap. And I was like, I'm in Portugal. I can't take a nap. I've never been here before. You know? And so I walked around that little town and I fell in love, you know, with Portugal, within that hour. You know, it was crazy. I remember, like, stopping at the bakery there and getting my first pasteis panata, and I called Diana, you know, as I was eating it, you know, back in I think with that point, we were in you were in Madison or no. No. You weren't still in Chicago. Chicago. You know? And we said, I think I can live here. And she was like, what? You know? It's like a night and I and I really wasn't talking about moving abroad. You know? And she always she always was. You know? Because she she had lived in Europe before. So but I was always like, I live in Chicago. We're not going anywhere. You know? And so, you know, she was kind of surprised that I would say that and Very surprised. You know? And so, you know, it was I started and then then on this press trip, instead of asking the questions that I normally would ask, like, oh, well, how many of these do you make? And where's the closest restaurant? And you're like, all the, you know, touristy things that I started asking, like, well, how much is property here? And Yeah. Doing and how do people work here? And, you know, all these in there, like, what are you thinking? My world. You have all these questions. Yeah. Yeah. They're they're totally not, you know, for your your blog. Right? And so that happened, you know, and so to answer the second, your follow-up to that was, you know, I, you know, you know, was it, I guess, you were like, was it what you expected? Or did did it work out the way you thought it would? Right? Yeah. You know, I guess the answer is yes and no. You know, because I thought I would be living in Novadoss, in this little, you know, walled city in in, Portugal, you know, and out of 33 100 people. That's so cute. Who would that be, really? I mean, you know, it's so cute. You know? And we I gotta tell you, we've probably been there 10 times since we've been here because I really do like it. We take everybody there who comes here. And I quickly learned once we started doing more research and we had been back to Portugal and gone up and down, you know, the the country to all, you know, all the places that we, you know, we we thought we needed to look at, that I could not live in a little village like that. I mean, I mean, I grew up in Chicago, Diana was in LA. It's like, you know, we you know, there's no way that we could city people could live in a little teeny town like that as romantic and charming as that sounds. It's just not very practical. You know? So the you know? No. You know, that was not possible, but it was possible to move to Portugal and still have the things that we kind of need, you know, in our lives. You know, it's like an everybody's are different. Right? It's like not everybody needs to leave with what the life they have and bring that somewhere else, you know, or have it close to that. You know, it's like and there are some things here that that we don't have, that we we did have, you know, back in the United States, but they're not deal breakers. Right? You know, it's like Right. We live in a fairly modern apartment. You know, we have air conditioning. We have heat. You know, we have a dryer. I mean, I know that's a lot of people, like, you know, but people don't have dryers in Europe. No. They don't. You know, it's like, it's not just here. You know, it's like everywhere. Right? People dry their clothes outside. It's not something I could get behind. You know, it's like and I and kudos to all of you who know that's better for the earth and everything else, but, you know, I don't want crunchy towels, you know, so we have a dryer. You know, it it's possible they have them. We just bought one. It was €300 in case you're wondering. You know, it's it's it's possible, you know, to to do that. Yeah. Yeah. You rent an apartment that doesn't have one and you have a space for 1, you can put 1 in. They're ventless. It you know, it's simple. No biggie. Right. Yeah. No. And I think, you know, those creature comforts are, you know, especially people who because I think really what's happening right now is that a lot of people who you know, my podcast is called Adventure Calls, right, because of the adventure part of this. Like, a lot of people that I usually would be working with were, you know, ready to, like, have you know, start a new page in their journey of life. You know? And I think right now, we're we're we're looking at people who are, okay. Fine. Yes. It's an adventure. And, yes, I wanna do this, but I actually feel like I have to go right now before I was ready. And so I think creature comforts are more important to a lot of people who are actually probably gonna end up doing this, you know, who who wouldn't have done it before. And so knowing that there are dryers, I was happy to hear in Portugal, for example, that you said that you have an ice machine as well, which, I mean, you miss ice. Okay? And they don't have Well, I have to we don't have an ice machine. What ice maker are you happy? They can make ice in our freezer. But there are people who own refrigerators here. Well, you could American refrigerator. Buy a They'd have it. Ice maker if you want. We have, Amazon comes from, Spain. Right. And any EU Amazon, you can use if you can't find something in the stores. Of course, we prefer to buy things locally, and there are other means because people here tend to come and go. They use Facebook marketplace a lot. They use OLX, which is a local market. The Etsy, eBay, all those things are available here. I know people are very concerned that they think they're they're not gonna be able to get anything, but we had friends who just went to the US and said, what can we bring you back? And the only thing I could think of was Red Vines, you know? Licorice. Licorice from Chicago. That's funny. Oh, they don't even have that in all the states. So, you know, well, there's there's, There's a reason for that. Yeah. Oh, it's a Twizzler, Red Vines. We're not getting into that here. But, you know, there's there's also the opportunity to get used to new things or to try new things. Sometimes, for example, there may be foods and things that you are used to at home, like, you can go and get, you know, that pastrami sandwich or whatever. And here, it's not that easy. You can find it a few places. And as we've lived here, the more and more, we're starting to see, things open up. I think part of that is that there have been a a lot of people, not just from the US, but all over. And your taste change and so on. But you also learn to make things yourself. I make my own Italian sausage because the sausage here is usually brought from Sicily, and it's not very spicy and what we're used to. You know? And so you make it. It's not hard. But Mhmm. Those kind of adaptations to if you really, really want it, there's a way to get it. But you also learn to appreciate the brilliance of Portuguese cuisine, which, you know, is grilled meats and grilled fresh fish and fresh produce. And it's really, you know, delicious. You know, but then there are all kinds of things and and people, because there are immigrants here. One of the things that I like is when you go to an Italian restaurant, it's usually run by an Italian person. When you go to a Chinese restaurant, it's usually run by a Chinese person. And so you're getting really, you know, good quality, you know, cuisine from and it's it's expansive. Of course, it's more expansive in the larger cities. But Portuguese people really like Portuguese food. Well, it's good also. I mean, we won't spend an hour talking about food because, you know, we can. But the you know, and somebody commented on the produce, you know, in the comments there. And, yes, I mean, said the the produce here is so different, you know, the than the United States because, I mean, the chemicals and everything else is just not, you know, they're they're just not allowed here. Ironic thing too is, like, we do a lot of shopping at our grocery store, but also at the markets. The markets here are actually cheaper than the grocery store prices. So you can you're getting them direct from the farmers, direct from the growers, and it's amazing because I mean and you learn to buy seasonally. That's like kind of like how back in the old days, like, you know, when when when your grandma and whatnot would go to the market, buy the stuff that was, you know, in in season. And those things that come is that now we look forward to when these little green plums come out, you know, like, all summer, we're like, is it almost time? Is it almost so I see you're looking forward to that Yeah. You know, when they come, you know, and that's and then when that stuff, when you have it, it is like not any fruit. The tomatoes are like tastes like tomatoes, everything. Even the freaking ice Imagine. This. You know, it tastes like, you know, it's this you know, Diana makes this killer wedge salad, and it's like, oh my god. It's like the best, you know, lettuce you've ever eaten. Yeah. It also gives you an opportunity because so many of the businesses here are small and, you know, the proprietors and owners are families or individuals that you feel good when you go out and you purchase something from a local vendor, whether it's in food or shopping or anything else. We have favorite stores that we take people to because we know the owners, and they're so gracious and grateful. But it also is a cultural, you know, experience for the people that we bring to them, and they get a chance to really experience what we really, for us, I think one of the main reasons we moved here is we just fell in love with the people. It's a beautiful, beautiful country, and it's very diverse geographically. I I compare it a lot to California, you know, and it's smooshed into the size of Indiana. But it has a very much northern part and a central part where they grow everything and and and, you know, where we are, which is kind of like Los Angeles, and then the the south, which is a lot warmer and so on. But the people and, you know, of course, everybody you meet isn't gonna be wonderful. But we just find overall that people are really interested and interesting and wonderful. And and we love learning about them and doing exchanges. You know? And so, for example, we're gonna have a a Thanksgiving dinner. We're gonna go to other people's Thanksgivings that they're doing, some other expat or immigrant friends. But we're having 1 in ad hours. We're gonna have Portuguese people, Brazilian people, people from France, people from, Britain. So it's a chance for us to to show a little bit of our culture to people who, you know, this is their first Thanksgiving. They don't even know what that is. Yeah. Yeah. And at the same time, you know, we get to experience, you know, some of the holidays and celebrations. And they just had magusto, which is the celebration of chestnuts with a special wine and chestnuts roasting everywhere. They have festivals all over the place. And Yeah. My husband love chestnuts, so I'm good on that one. Yeah. But, you know But but I think that that's that that just goes to show that, like so moving to Portugal or moving anywhere is about integrating with locals, which you've talked about, but also becoming an expat or an immigrant is its own set of things too. And I think sometimes people are, like, a little touchy about talking about, like, the expat bubble, for example. But it's like, how many times in Chicago even, a very global sit kinda global a global city, how many times did you have, like, people from around the world who just happened to live in Chicago at your table? Not often. But once you kind of uproot yourself and you become a part of that community, you really do meet people from it's not just about integrating with the locals. It's also really your your whole friendship circle does become more global as immigrant. And that's it. That's something I feel like people don't talk about as much because I know we wanna be respectful and obviously integrate. But it's also awesome to have friends from all over the world. It opens up your world in, like, a multidimensional way, I feel. Yeah. I think well, I think the other thing that people, you know, and maybe they talk about it. I don't know. If it's been I think important for us is you and we've done this because we've traveled so much. It's like when you go somewhere, now you're gonna live somewhere, you really have to be respectful to that culture. I mean, you really have to go out of your way to learn a language, you know, learn, you know, like, okay, like when you first got here, it's like, you wait in line patiently. Don't ever try to, you know, just if you're like, oh, I just have one one question. No. You wait your you take your number, you take and you queue and you do it. And they wait very the Portuguese are extremely patient. And they will wait in line to do it. So you but if you're used to being an, you know, kind of like an ugly American and going in and talking, I didn't get my and say, like, they will ignore you. They will walk away, and you And then they're just there. They they may never help you. Right. You know? It's like and and they don't make a thing about it. They just won't do it. You know? I understand that one little tip about living in Portugal is that you must always take a number. Is this correct? Yes. Yes. In the places that have them, most most places have them. The administrative places, the bakeries, not every place has them, but in the places that have them, you know, even if you just go up and ask the guard or somebody, whatever, they'll direct you to take a number. Take a number. And so you always look for the little, you know, it's just what you would expect, ticker tape with a little number usually. Yeah. There's usually a screen that depends on the size of the screen. There's a screen. Like today, I went, you know, for my physical therapy, and I have to I have to log in and do it. And after I was leaving, I had to make another appointment. I came out. There's no one in reception. I mean, literally not one person. I went up to the girl. I'm like, I need to move my appointment till tomorrow, blah blah blah. And she's like, I need you to take a number. I'm like, there's no one here. I'm like, oh, I'm like, alright. And then I had to dial my American this back and go, oh, we got that. I'm I get my number. And then then she called my number, and I was like, it was like a, you know, like a bad SNL skit. Right? But Yeah. Then she would have Let's go let's go right there because I think I think this is important. What you just said, you might take it for granted because you're, like, locals now and you live there now and you're about to do. But can we just take a second? Especially for people, some people are asking a little bit about, like, health care and insurance and stuff like that. What you just said was this. I was there for my PT appointment. Right? This is something that you do. People have PT, and you're living your life there. Can we just talk about, like, just a little bit? And I don't we don't have to get too deep. We're not, you know, we don't have too deep in this, but, like, you go to PT, you go to doctors. What's that life like? Like, how do you know what to do? Does everybody speak English? You are the services similar or the same? What is your experience, you know, of of the health care system like? Yeah. Well, I can speak a lot. Well, yeah, this I'll give the overview, and you can talk about the experience. We firmly believe that we didn't pay into the private, to the public system here, and so we we strongly advocate for a variety of reasons that people who are coming here get private insurance. When you first get here, you know, the bank, when you set up your bank account, will try and sell you insurance. You can do that. There are also probably more beneficial or better, cost ways to do it, but you, you know, if you're just getting started your 1st year and you don't have any health problems, you you can get it through the bank. You can join the the AfpoP is a a group for immigrants. I think it's a British group, and they offer discounts and special arrangements with certain insurance providers. There's probably 3 or 4 main insurance providers that people use that are global. And then there are a variety of other ones here because of the way that it's set up. Certain ones, you can come in depending on your age. 70, I think, seems to be a cutoff, and then there are limited choices. There are still some insurers, you know, that will take you over that, but certain companies will keep you, and you'll be grandfathered in no matter how old you are. Okay. That's the question. You don't lose it at 70. Right. Yeah. Right. That's important. That's important. Right. Right. So, the price may keep going up, but, you know, if you get in under a certain age, then they can't kick you off. Mhmm. The private health care system, you know, it depends on where you go, but most of those hospitals have English speakers. We belong to one that has mostly in the Lisbon area and up to the Silver Coast. There's other systems in different parts of of the country. I'm sure they all operate fairly similarly. And as far as services, lot of good service. I mean, we haven't had any problems who could talk more specifically, but, you know, state of the art equipment, you know, wonderful people, good doctors, you know, very, service oriented kind people. And and unusually you get answers in some cases very, very quickly and you can get appointments relatively quickly as well. So a lot Because you're paying for private health. She's had more experience than I have. I mean, I've had a surgery here. I had my gallbladder removed last year without a hitch. You know, I had an excellent doctor, excellent surgeon. My head you know, I turned I know I don't look like it, but I turned 65 this year. You know? Aghast. You know, I'm glad to take my pearls. Last year, I decided to have all my tests done to make sure I was you know? Well, everything was cool. And I'd like I literally had every test, and I think all in, it probably cost me, like, what do you say? Like €300 or something like that. You know, it's like forever. I'm I'm talking all the cardiac tests, every single every single test. Right? And that's how they discovered your gallbladder. And that's how they discovered my gallbladder. Right. But what's I think one of the interesting things to note about the service is, yes, the the people are very lovely. They speak English. You know, they made me feel welcome. My doctor always says, I'm so glad you're here. You know? And not not to see me, but, you know, glad you're here in Portugal. Right? We're nice people. You know? So I think that's also a key. Goes a long way. It's like, you know, we don't make trouble. Right? I'm not I want answers. I want, you know, I want I want good care, and I think it it works. But when they send you for something, like, say, they sent me for an ultrasound of my abdomen, right, to see, you know, what we if there was anything going on. It was just a pre check. It wasn't even something I didn't have any issues. And as the doctor, it's a doctor doing the test, right? On my abdomen says, oh, did you know you have, like your gallbladder is full of all these little microscopic stones? I was like, no, it's not. You know, it's like I'm fine. I've never had any problems. Like, I'm fine. I've never had any problems. And she's like, well, you're gonna have to have your gallbladder up. I'm like, oh, no. I'm not. But, you know, and but because they when they're telling they tell it because it's a doctor doing every single test you do, And I've had, like, I'm having some some of my my b set, as they say here right now. You know, as they when they do the when the doctor's doing the test, they're telling you as they're doing the test, what's wrong? It's not a med tech. Completely different. Right? It's a doctor. You know, that's saying, okay. You're probably this or, oh, you know what? There's no tear. Like, when they were she was doing my vise. There's no tear. You've got some tendinitis probably from an old injury, you know, blah blah blah. You know? And so I can start as soon as you leave the test going, great. I I kind of already she's like, go see the doctor. They'll tell you because you're probably gonna have to go for physical therapy, you know, which is exactly what happened. You know? So, I mean, I kind of like that pre, you know, knowing what's wrong because I back in the United States, my doctor was always either you're gonna be fine or you have cancer. Right. And you're not gonna know for a couple of weeks. Yeah. For sure. In Northwestern in Chicago. You know what I mean? It wasn't, you know, some you know, it was a I mean, I would belong to a really good health care system. I I remember it well. Also took me weeks to get in. I mean, here, I call you know, I or I actually, it's all it's all online. I mean, I go online and, you know, and there's an app just like everything we're used to in the United States. You make an appointment. And, like, right now, if I wanted to make appointment with my doctor, I probably could get in next week, and I could probably get in Monday, Tuesday. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, because I mean, there's enough, time unless he's on vacation or something different. You can get in pretty quickly for most things except for, like, the dermatologist is hard to get into. Like, some specialty people are Yeah. One of the things that they're experiencing here is the overgrowth of people using the system. And so even in the even in the private system, but especially in the public system, there is a shortage of doctors as there's a real shortage of OBGYN doctors, and the system is very stressed, and they're trying to figure out what to do. Because wages are low, and that's what keeps your prices lower. People get educated here, and then they go to other EU countries where they can make more money. Sure. So this is a increasing issue because as the population ages and as people move from other places, you know, Portugal is really focused on trying to, you know, increase the number of tax paying, you know, citizens. I've heard more and more, stories that there are some challenges in terms of, you know, getting service and and so on. Can I ask you guys because I I have a couple of questions there as well? But just in general, I think it's a burning question. I'm seeing a couple of questions here about it. But, like, what do you pay for? Do you mind? Or what does one pay for, private insurance in terms of, like, a monthly payment? Yeah. I mean, it's gonna vary from person to person, but last year, the 3 major or 4 major insurance companies all realized that the people were using a lot more of the services than they anticipated, and there was a 60% jump. So for the 2 of us, we pay €67100 a year. Was that it? Yeah. But we have the 2nd from the top level of service, which basically covers almost everything. It includes, some Yeah. Dental and some vision. We were paying And that That's for both of us. That's for both of us. And we have to pay it in advance for the year. Right. Okay. Now that's something to be aware. To get the letter. In order to get the yeah. And we're going like I said, we're going through Afpop, which uses a a company called Medall, which has a special deal with Allianz, who is our insurer, just to give you some names. There are so we've always been pretty, you know, keen on having high level insurance. There are many other adequate and, you know, depending on your needs, you can go out level. We have a friend who's got the higher level. He pays more. Depends on that includes cancer care and some other things. Right. Other insurers, you know, it's different, but I I just I wanna emphasize that while it's it's little bit less than what we were paying in the US, it's not a ton less, but what ends up costing you less is the services you use. Right. Sure. So for example, the co pay on a visit is like €15, €16. Yeah. Something like that. My I've been going to physical therapy. It's €3.54. That's silly. Session. Effort I feel bad, like, almost Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I know my pay my insurance as well. So when I think one other important thing to know is when you move and when you're considering insurance, know that that if you have anything, any preexisting thing going on, any conditions, that you need to have proof of insurance from as far back as you can go. Yeah. I mean, this I mean, we can do that. I mean, because, like, this was a challenge for us because because we've been working independently. Right? And, you know, it's like so, you know, we've had to cobble that together because for a while, we were with Blue Cross. For a while, we were with, you know, different Yeah. So we had to make sure and you can't have a gap. Right. You know, it's like so you you know You have to have every single insurance thing so that it's a they can see every single day they From when you were in the United States? From as far back as you can go. Because the further back you can go, the further back they'll take any, you know, if you have a preexisting condition. Right. So if you're working for a company, then you've had the same Blue Cross Blue Shield for 20 years, then you're golden. You don't have to get anything else. You know? It's like what we're we're a little bit more complicated because we've had multiple jobs and multiple things, coverage on multiple places, you know? So Right. We have to get all that work. And now I would say that's, you know, if you wanna talk about how to prepare, if you're planning to do this, there are certain items of paperwork that are well worth starting early to get because, I mean, trying to get hers from Aetna, I think, was a company. We couldn't even find who to talk to. And then we got one person who was like, oh, I can do it. And she gave us a phone number that wasn't really attached to anything, and we got disconnected and we couldn't find her. I mean, it was a nightmare. Yeah. We're So that that definitely is one thing I would advise to do well in advance, get that in order because I'll have insurance paperwork. A lot of Yeah. And like I said, as far back as you can go, I mean, seriously, you know, because that will help you. You know? I was able to go back all the way to my corporate job, you know, so that helped me a lot, you know, because I have a couple weird things. You know? It's like so even because, like, a lot of us have thyroid issues and things like that. You know? It's like so I mean No. That's advice I haven't heard from anyone else before. I think that's really, really helpful advice is, like because that's the concern. But here's the thing. Once you move here and and you can't you it's impossible for you to get that stuff. Impossible. Because I mean, unless you I mean, you're gonna have to make a lot of long distance calls. You're gonna end the you know, and and all that. You know? The same thing with if you plan to drive here, you have 2 years to get a driver's license exchange. If you're 60 years or under the rules of change, you can still use your license, but you have 90 days to kind of identify things. And there's one thing that you need to get in the US, and that's an apostille version of whatever your state's thing is about your, your, driving record. And you need to read that. Those rules have changed again, what piece of paper you need, but you will need to communicate with the state and you will need to get an official document. And nobody, trust me, nobody who drives here wants to take a driving test in Portuguese, much less you know, Portuguese drivers are a whole world unto themselves. And so you really wanna make that as simple as possible. So if you plan to drive and the other thing is you can't hold on. I know people do this all the time, but it is illegal. And my former life is an attorney. They do communicate on these things. Once you come here and you exchange your driver's license, you cannot keep copy of your license from the other country and you don't need it. The Portuguese driver's license is your new driver's license, but people will say, oh, well, I have it. So when I go back home and visit, I can use my driver's. If they find out they will suspend your license or take it away and then you won't be able to drive and it's not worth it. So that's just, I know people do it. A lot of people do it. You know, but it's not. Yeah. You don't need to. Because if you go back, I think people keep it because they think, oh, I'm I'm be able to rent a car when I go back. You could rent a car with your Portuguese Right. License. I mean, it's no different. So don't freak out about that. Yeah. Right. That's right. Okay. Well, thank you. Those are 2 like, I'm gonna make sure to, like, write those down and and share those with people too because I think those are 2 really useful pieces of advice about, like, day to day life and the complexities. That's not related to, like, the visa application. That's related to, like, setting up your life in a new country. And I think people don't think past, like, getting their paperwork for the visas very often. But before I I don't wanna keep people too long, and I think there's a couple more, like, big questions people have. I don't know if you know, but, like, you guys are a queer couple, and you're living in Portugal. And we had some questions about if I could have screenshot that right there. Questions about what it's like to be an LGBTQ couple living in Portugal. Have you experienced any homophobia? How do people treat you? And if you've heard any other anecdotal stories from people, because I, there was a question in the q and a, and I you can't speak, for a person of color, obviously. But also just like being a person of color and being queer, Do you have any anecdotal stories maybe you can share there as well? No pressure. If not, obviously, but Yeah. Yeah. As far as being queer here and, you know, where we are, it's not an issue at all. I mean, I mean, I I'm we always come out to my doctors, my hair person, my it's like, I'm always like, this is my wife. You know, it's like, I don't doctors, my hair person, my it's like, I'm always like, this is my wife. I don't I treat my life the same as I did in the United States. It's like I don't, you know, make an adjustment for that. And, once in a while, you'll get an eyebrow raise, but then they'll be like, oh, okay. Like, when I'm my PT person, for instance, you know, it's like, well, my wife and she's like, your wife. I'm like, yeah. My wife. She's like, oh, okay. You know? You know? And then she just and now we're like besties. You know? Because I feel like because I opened up to her, she, you know, feels like I'm cool or whatever. You know? And but I you know, in terms of the community, you you know, we, you know, have a very mixed community of different kinds of people. You know, it's like, you know, we we definitely know, you know, other lesbians here, other, you know, gay men here. You know, we don't, really go to the bars and things like that. I mean, we're we're older. Right? It's like, so that's not our our jam. Like, we're like dinner party people and going out to eat and stuff like that. You know, it's like, so, in the big cities, there are some, you know, places where people who want to who want that. You know, Principe Real in in, Lisbon is well known for its nightlife and and gay, you know, bars and all that stuff. And there are some places up in Porto as well. But Portugal was one of the first places to put gay marriage in the constitution. So it was way ahead of the curve. It didn't have to be forced on it. And I think as a result, most of the urban areas, for sure, it's a nonissue. People say, well, where's the gay area? And that's it's like Portugal is the gay, you know? But that said, if you were to go into some of the older villages, the smaller communities, you're gonna have a different set of demographics. And those people are also, by the way, probably the people who are not gonna speak a lot of English. Right. Anybody probably under 40 or 45 most likely learned English in school. And one of the challenges for us is actually being able to practice Portuguese because as soon as they hear our kind of crappy accents, they're like, oh, you speak English, and they immediately wanna accommodate us. We're like, no, we wanna learn Portuguese. Yeah. But, you know, I'd say that overall, almost everywhere, we haven't heard a lot that we have heard a couple of stories, but they usually tend to be in places that are more remote, older people. Remember, this was a Catholic. I mean, it still is a Catholic country, although I would say it's kind of like what we in the in the Greek world, we call baklava Christians, people who show up for the parties and the festivities. Yeah. Church open anywhere, but they're Christian. And so I think there's a lot of that here. And people, they they have you know, their sense of identity comes from history and culture more than the modern day world. And, that being said, there are, you know, saints holidays. Every town has its own saint and they use it to celebrate. And I think Portuguese just really love to party. They love their families. They say whenever you get 3 Portuguese people together, you have a party. And, and it's true. And they're not we we everybody says they're quiet and unassuming And they're really not. They're very lively and, and they enjoy a a good time. And I would say loud. Yeah. They're loud, but they're not aggressive. You know? They're not pushy. Unless they're driving. We've been in Italy and some other places where the people, especially the men, are, you know, very aggressive towards women. And we don't find that here. And I think it's because the women, you know, wield a heavy stick at home. And so if they try it, they get beaten. And so you find that people here are much more polite. I mean, you know, there's always gonna be a jerk here and there, but people will let you go in front of them at the grocery store and so on. It's a generally genteel I would say more genteel than some of the other European countries that we've been to. Absolutely. Yeah. So I would say too that also, you know, during, June pride month, there's, you know, Lisbon has a huge, there's 2 different things. There's parade. And the parade here is not like parades that we're used to in United States. It's more like a protest parade, not in an angry way, but just people carrying signs and marching together. And then there's a big party in the the Comercio. Yeah. Which is we've we've been to them. It's huge. It's great. It's really fun. You know, there's food and dancing and stuff like that. But but the smaller towns, some of them have them too. Yeah. And Porto, you know, this is this is very Portuguese. And they have the June celebration in in, Lisbon. And so as to not step on their toes, Porto has it in a completely different time, different month. Okay. Because, well, you know, we don't wanna compete. You know, we want people to go to both and, and there's a lot of that kind of thinking where it's very community oriented. It's not as much me first me only. And, you find yourself adapting to that. And it's it's it's really something. Well, there's a there's a lot of groups, you know, on on Facebook, you know, that, you know, LGBTQ, you know, plus groups. I mean, there's, I know somebody was asking about people of color. You know, there are groups for everyone, you know, literally, you know, it's like and there's meetups for everyone. So our advice, I would say to everyone is when you come is before you come, you know, start meeting people in those groups so that you can get a familiarity of of what's going on. You have what kind of activities do they have, maybe even make friends. And we made friends with people before we got here. So when we when we got here, it was like, hey. We're having dinner with Bill and Lisa on, you know, Wednesday. We just got here. It's like so and then they introduced us to their friends. It's, you know, it's so, you know, it's kind of like and then you meet them and them and then and then it's kinda like it just keeps growing, you know, that way. I mean, the challenge is kind of like you're going to college, but again, you know, it's like you're meeting all these people all of a sudden, and then you call, you know, it's like, oh, you know, some people you meet and you become great friends and some people you don't. And that's okay. You know? It's like you you find your own little group of people that, you know, that you learn to trust and have the same, you know, values, you know, that you that you do as well. Yeah. And it's that's the one thing that is different is, like, you do meet a lot more people as an expat upfront. But as a grown up, you're not really used to hanging out with a lot of people you don't like in your home life. But, like, when you move abroad and you're in that expat, you can be like, you do find yourself hanging out with people that you're like, I don't like them, and we are together right now at at this thing. And so you do kinda like, we people out, but you do actually get to more people you don't love at first, but that's just how you go about, like, building your community. Yeah. You kinda have to meet all the people for yeah. Before you can make those decisions, and then you just do. But here's the thing. People call you out too. You know? So it's not just you doing the call. Perfect. I it's so hard to believe. And, also, if you decide to move from one area to another, you know, you're gonna get a whole other group of people because you'll find just like anywhere. Know, people are looking for certain things. Some people like the country. Some people wanna be by the coast. Some people wanna be in an urban area. Some people wanna be somewhere like I don't know. Portugal really has suburbs, but kind of less urban, I would say. You know? Mhmm. But if you wanna find people, you can. Yeah. You know, there's there's people that have put groups together. You know, there's people that have spearheaded this. You know, Diana started that, you know, queer women in Portugal, you know, Facebook group. You know, that now has, like, over a 100 and something. No. 800. 800. You know, something. 50 people or something. Yeah. Of course, it grew just like yours did, you know, overnight after last week. Yeah. But, you know, did that those are good places to go and get answers for questions too. Yeah. People. For where you can visit. Yeah. A lot of people that say, hey. We're, you know, we're coming and whatever, and so we're doing, you know, that meetup with you up up north in Porto. Yeah. And so that's a chance for the people in Porto because our list is pretty much virtual all over the country. Yeah. Our goal was just to help, you know, queer women and and their friends to have a place to get together online. And now this is an opportunity for the people who live in a geographic area to get together and have a drink and meet face to face. And maybe we'll be able to facilitate some friendships there. We had a picnic down in the Lisbon area, you know, last summer. And so we had a nice turnout of people who, you know, this is a way to make up other friends, you know, besides, you know, just sort of random. They're kind of prescreened, if you will. And we lost that group. We we, it's it's not a business group. You know? Right. Simply for building community. Right. Right. There's not gonna be people coming in there. I mean, it's some people sneak through once in a while. You know? It's like but, you know, selling trying to sell you something. Right. Yeah. No. No. No. That that's all that's all really great. And before I move on to, like, something else I really do wanna ask you guys before we we we stay on the call or if people wanna hop, they can jump. There there's a question in in the when is the meetup in in Porto? There's a question in the group. Oh, it's Tuesday, 19th at from 6 to 8 PM at Bar of Soap, which is a queer bar. It's actually a queer bar. Yeah. With some folks upset. It's really a fun fun spot. It's, it's near the, Boya Boya Market in that area. So it's pretty central to everybody. You should be able to get there, Boya. I gotta shout out to Melissa Capers for helping us find a place. I wonder if Melissa is on the call today. I wouldn't be surprised if she was, but I'm not sure. Okay. So thinking back to our early conversations, both before you ever left and you were totally green in all of this, to after you had been there for, like, a month and 6 months and stuff, one of your consistent concerns and challenges, and this isn't, like, horrible, but has been about learning the language. And I have to say, personally, as a fluent Spanish speaker, that don't help at all when you're in Portugal. Maybe when you're in Portugal, not at all in Portugal. So how has it been learning trying to learn the language, and where are you at now three and a half years in? Can where are you at? Can you have conversations? Do you know what's going on? How's it going? Well, we Sometimes. Sometimes. We can sometimes. We know what's going on. There's there's a couple of things. The government offers classes for very, very low cost, but they're 8 month long, you know, things. And honestly, we just didn't like it. We didn't like our teacher. We didn't like going to the place and all that. We, have joined an online program called The Journey. It's from Portuguese with Carla. If anybody's interested, get in touch with us afterwards. We can get you a discount on the program if you're really interested. It's gamified, so it keeps my attention, which hardly anything ever does with my undiagnosed ADD. But we found an online course that was offered. It was a condensed intensive. So ours lasted about 9 weeks, I believe, 4 days a week, 3 or 4 hours a day. There are a couple of companies that offer that. We have friends, the one that we did, I don't know, there was some shakeup with the government. The, the goal of this courses, whether it's a government course, an online course, or any other course is that you have to get a certificate that, that says that you are fluent to the A2 level, which is actually very low compared to a lot of other countries. Mhmm. And so when you finish some of these intensive courses, you have to pay maybe €300, €400 for, but you take your test with that organization. And if you pass that test, you get the paper. Otherwise, you have to sit for an exam, which we've been told is is really much harder and and a little bit more disconcerting because it's in a center, kind of sounded like the bar exam to me. But you have to pass one of these tests in order to get that a 2 certificate. But you have, you only have to do that if you're looking for a permanent residency or, citizenship. If you're just doing wanna do the renewals of your temporary residency, it's not required. Mhmm. But if you're looking to become a, a Portuguese citizen and therefore a citizen of the EU, you better learn Portuguese to an a two level. Yes. Exactly. What's, like, your hardest, like, living in Portugal, like, having a health issue or, like, I don't know, getting into a car accident, you know, like, little little car accident. But, like, what what's, like what is a really hard situation for you when you don't speak English? Because I know everybody speaks English, you can say, or, like, they situation for you when you don't speak English? Because I know everybody speaks English, you can say, or, like, they switched to English, but, like, when are you just like, oh god. I don't know. I don't understand. There hasn't really been too much of that. I mean, I okay. Like, when, we our dryer broke. Right? Mhmm. And so we had the guy come to fix it, and he spoke 0, you know, English, 0, you know? And I was trying to Use a lot of you know, what was going on and whatnot because I you know, like most lesbians, I consider myself a fix it person. So I'm like, no. I think it's just this, you know. Put your tool belt on just to be like, I know it. It's like, you know, I just I couldn't fix it, you know. And, you know, so we, you know, you know, I I got on my phone, you know, and use DeepL and just, you know, finally, we just went back and forth on that. You know? So it's it's the default is always the translator. And and, but, fortunately, we live in a world of such great technology now Right. That is, like, when you can speak into it and they can speak back to you and, you know, it's like all that fun stuff, you know, that that makes it super easy, but that's so rare Yeah. You know, when that happens. Because usually and I think the the the thing that always happens is unfortunately, this will say you'll say, you know, that that they call you on the phone or something that they'll start talking. You're like, you're like, and they're like, oh, no. No. No. And it's like and then the the men that that start talking English just like I'm speaking English. There's there's yeah. They're just shy. You know? A lot of people are shy, but when they realize your skills are worse than theirs, they're willing to give it a try. And you kinda do this Portugueselish thing. Yeah. Also, fortunately, Google Translate has now added European Portuguese. And when this is something also with the language. It's very important that whatever class you take is European Portuguese, not Brazilian because there are substantial differences, and Portuguese is kind of difficult to begin with. And if you get the wrong dialect, you're gonna have to learn it all over again. It's it's kind of a pain in the neck. But it's interesting that they finally added it. It's crazy because it's also not a part of, like, Duolingo or the other one. I can't remember. But it's like you you the what I mean, for a beginner okay. Fine. Right? Like, the, like, basic Portuguese is fine to do with if you're learning the Brazilian. But, yeah, it's very hard to find European Portuguese. So that's Well, there's a there's a few resources as we said, Carla. There's a good one, and there's these guys who do practice Portuguese. It's a gay couple Yeah. That they live here. One of them moved here, and one of them is is Portuguese. They're good. They're good. There's a good app that's just for learning words. It's called drops. Yeah. And it's kind of that's also gamified, you know, so it's a good word. You know, it's a good way to, you know, to learn. It's really it's super simple. I mean, you read it. It's it's it's a good way to learn. Yeah. There's also like some television shows on Netflix. There's a show called Gloria, which was about the during the time of the Carnation Revolution, radio guys running a radio Gloria. Channel. Yeah. Gloria. And there's another one about the Azores. Oh, the, Haba Gippesh. Yeah. The Haba Gippesh. Yeah. The Haba Gippesh is, it's dark. It's very dark and depressing and druggy and makes you not wanna go to the Azores. So, I mean, I think it's, it's, you know, maybe for people who grew up there, it's, you know, they see that side of it. You know, most of us go there and and say, oh, it's beautiful. Really? Right. But so you can watch these on Netflix and, like, put them in English subtitles and watch it in Portuguese or the other way around and that, like, it brings you familiar There's a comedy too about a family. Yeah. I mean, in here, I mean, you know, watching the Portuguese news, you know, things like that where you're just kinda getting more of a film familiarity. Just hearing the words over and over again. Yeah. You know, it helps a lot. We're really good at the in the restaurants and grocery stores food. We we're no problem there. You know, it's it's kind of what you get what what you get the comfort level. Yeah. And but a lot of the restaurants actually have multiple languages on the menus and some of them even actually just have English. That's your you know, if you're an English speaker, you're ahead of the curve much better than others. Yeah. And the grocery stores and a lot of the stores actually have they still print flyers in print, and that becomes a visual dictionary for you. You can look at it. Oh, Dorada. That's oh, that's that fish, you know, and that's extremely useful. Mhmm. Mhmm. So but what I'm hearing is that, like, in three and a half years, you're not fluent. You're not, like, you're not like like a local having conversations, leaning out the window, talking to another local, but you're also not having a problem living your daily life in No. Not at all. And you wouldn't say to someone like, oh, you have to learn Portuguese before you move. Otherwise, you can't live here. No. They don't try. You don't have to. I think, like, the people are saying it's, like, 7, 8 years before you are actually, like, fully fluid. Right. So, I mean, so I don't feel that bad. I mean, I tell you I can tell you for anyone sweating this, I I never learned another language in my life, you know, so I was completely freaked out when we started doing the the government one. I was like, so I felt like I'm never gonna learn this. I'm never gonna learn this. I was like, you're learning it. Damn it. You know? She's like, well, if you learn it and you get your citizenship, can I then come over by reunification? Right. Or any other way But, you know, you know, I I think, honestly, we're we have not dedicated enough time. Think if you spend an hour or so every day, you know, you could push this way, way down. Yeah. You have to you have to be dedicated to it. Learning a language is hard. Learning a hard language is even harder. Right. And honestly, I there are days when I actually it makes me feel bad that I don't know more because I feel it's kind of my responsibility that if I'm gonna live here, I should learn to speak their language. It's kind of insulting to that, you know, that you don't. I mean, there's plenty of expats that move here that don't even bother. Right. And and and and I don't wanna be like that. You know, it's like so and I just so and I try to do the best I can, you know, when I'm out and about, you know, and, I mean, I I think that if you if you know some basic phrases and can just, you know, do the basic transactions and stuff, you're way ahead of the game because they will treat you very respectfully. I mean, if you walk in and I see it, I see Americans walk in the store, and they go, I want this. I want that. And it's like and they look at them like, you know, what do they do? They do that in every country. Right. It doesn't matter where you're you're where you're at. If you're in Germany, France, you know, Italy, and you act like that, you're gonna get the same response. You know? So Yeah. And I'll just add to this even though I don't live in Portugal, but for anybody who who is listening to this, You know, there there's a lot more to language than just words too. I think the way you carry yourself, if you can get little filler words and sounds, also, like, there might be little things that the Portuguese do with their hands or the sounds they make. Every little thing that you can pick up really makes you sound much more fluent. Yeah. What I guess they do that. They do this. That's a that's a that's a nod of acceptance, acknowledgement, whatever. They just I'm too lazy to even say anything. I just But then that part of it. You're you're right. The shortening of words. Like, everyone, oh, bragadda. Right? It's like, if you're a woman, you say, you know, thank you. But here, it's like bragadda. Right. It's like just they eat their words. Yeah. But there are also a whole ton of absolutely crazy sayings here. The one I love the best is blah blah blah whiskers. Blah blah blah. And that makes no sense unless you have seen a Portuguese commercial for cat food, Whiscus. I was gonna say. It comes in little packets. Uh-huh. And it's like what you're saying and it shows a woman coming in and she's saying, hi, cat. It's a wonderful day. Isn't a wonderful day? Isn't everything great? Oh, here, let me get you your, you know, package of Whiscus. And then it shows what the cat hears. Blah blah blah blah blah, Whiscuits, the cat does. Uh-huh. And so people say that when somebody's talking like me and they're bored out of their minds and they're like blah blah blah, Whiscuits, the cat does. It's like stop talking. Get to the point. Right? Like yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, so okay. This that's great. Okay. And then, I I I love this, and I and I think it's, like, more encouraging to a lot of people because I think you think, oh, I have to speak the language before I go. Or, like, living in another language is impossible or too challenging. But it sounds to me like it's totally fine to to make it work. You know, we've got a couple other questions, but I actually have one more question. It's a little bit more of a technicality, so I'm gonna just hold that off until the end. But one other question was just, like, culture shock wise, did you experience culture shock? Normally, how culture shock works is you have your kind of, like, honeymoon phase where you're like, this is the best place in the whole wide world. You have a day where it's the movie montage scene where it starts raining and everything goes wrong, but you have that period of time. And then at some point, you kind of level off into, like, an acceptance phase. What was your culture shock like? And did you go through that down phase? And, you know, are you out of it, I hope, by now? Yeah. No. I I think that because we moved here during the end of the pandemic, I think when we when we first got here, it was like this giant, like, such relief. And, you know, we almost kissed the ground because it was like, I can't believe we're here, and I'm so glad we're here. Right. You know? And it's like, I still this still brings tears in my eyes when I think about how I felt, you know, when we first got here. Free. You know? It's like the relief, you know, here and not there anymore. And it sounds harsh, you know? And this was how many years ago? I think you're preaching to the choir here right now. You know? And, you know, I I just remember feeling like such a such a like a weight was lifted, you know, off my back, you know? And and I remember then, like, we our process, as you know, you know, we've told you our story. You know, our process went really fast. When we got here, we here, like, on a, you know, Monday, and then we went went and got our residency card, like, on Thursday, and it was like, boom, boom, boom, you know, really fast. But when we had that when we went and had the meeting and it was over, it was like we like, we're walking along the beach because it's the office is, like, right, you know, right off the oceanfront right there. And we were both, like, I just ecstatic. Couldn't We took a picture and, and put it up on Facebook or something, and people said, oh my god. You look so I we haven't seen you. Yeah. You don't even look like yourselves. You look so happy and relaxed and everything, and and it's because we felt that way. The cultural shock I wouldn't say it was a cultural shock, but it was coming from where we were because it was the pandemic. Everyone here was wearing masks. We had to stand in line. They only let a certain number of people into the grocery stores. They were on a hard, hard lockdown before we got here, then they kind of eased up a little bit. But the community and social responsibility that people feel towards each other is significantly different than when we came from the US and, you know, when we were there, people were standing in front of the Capitol dome with their guns saying you can't make me wear a mask and you can't make me get a vaccine. We get here and they have the admiral of the navy who is very handsome, you know, white hair, blue eyed, tall guy. And he said, we are going to take care of ourselves and each other and we're going to get vaccines. And literally, it was like 99.7%. You know, only the people who literally couldn't get one or were too young didn't get a vaccine. And so I think that the sense of responsibility and I remember reading some comments that people were, you know, asking, and they said, you know, well, why did you get that vaccination? We don't really know if it works, and this and that. I said, well, because I wanna keep my family safe and I wanna keep my friends safe. It's my responsibility to be there and do what's right for my community. It wasn't about me and what I want. It was I'm responsible to these people around me. And I think that for me was, I don't know if it's culture shock, but it was so different than I had been experiencing that. And that's my orientation. It always has been. I felt these are my people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. My community. And I would say, I mean, in terms of culture shock, right, it's like I've only been back to the United States one time Wow. Since we've been gone. And and that to me was the culture shock. Because I you know, as soon as we we walked back in and started doing things and driving and going places, I was like, oh my I I I felt that tension again, that pressure, that, you know, people just fighting you for every fucking space and sorry. You know? And the thing Please. You know, that it was like, you know, I can't wait to get back home. Because at that point Listen. Listen. Cynical me. Let I wanna I'm not gonna end on a negative front, but let's talk about something here. There has got to be something you don't like about Portugal, you guys. You've been going on about how lovely it is, and, like, right now, I feel like everyone on this call is gonna be filling out their visa applications. But there is that stuff that it that is like, you just it's really hard, and you might you you think it's not just for you, but what do you think is useful to share, you know, with people? It's like, what is really hard and, like, not great? Well, the bureaucracy is not great at all. I mean, it take I mean, you know, we, you know, we talked about gathering the paper for our driver's license and stuff, but it's like it took us for I don't I don't even know how long it was over a year or whatever it was. Yeah. Over here. To get our actual driver's license here and going there and and then being told you couldn't get an appointment because you couldn't get an appointment because we didn't have a Social Security number here because we don't work here. Right? You know? And, you know, it's like, well, then you can't get an appointment if you don't have that number. It's like, but then how do we get an appointment? It's like, well, you need the number. It's like this circle jerk thing, and then it

was like, okay. You have to come back in the morning at, like, 7: 1:06:19

30 in the morning and wait in line for, like, the manual number, the people that don't have Social Security. And so we had to, like, leave. We were there, and it was Lisbon, and we lived here. Appointment to get an appointment. So we had to go in to get an appointment then to get another appointment. And then when we get there, the lady is like, that does not or she claims not speaking in English because it was just the 2 of us. And she's she keeps saying now. Now. And I'm, like, trying to explain to her. I'm like, because I had the piece of paper and everything. Like, this is what the other thing, and she's like, now. Now. Now. And then she kept pushing the button for the next person. And I was, like, so frustrated because it was like, listen. I've been here 3 times. It's like, I'm not fucking leaving here until I get an answer. I think I even said that. That's what I wanna see. Yeah. Because, like, there there's something like things. Once she understands the spirit, she doesn't. You know, it's like, and some lady was next or came over and was like, what is the problem? Because I never do that here because I know it doesn't work. You know? And, you know, she I explained to her and she's like, well, you know, you they sent your driver's license, but you moved. Don't ever move. You know? Like, even when you're in process of something. Yeah. Really. Once you start Because you're getting paperwork, just, you know, if they jack your rent, just stay. And so we Yeah. Just does it's not worth it. And so they what they delivered it, whatever. It got thrown away, whatever. You know? And so we ended up hiring somebody to go with us. So it was so it was seamless. It cost us, like, a €100. Right? You know, it's, like, to go and get both of our driver's license because it was like, I couldn't I wasn't gonna do it again. Couldn't deal with it. Interesting. And right now, honestly, it kind of works like anybody who's from Chicago or or or a place like it. It works like Chicago. She went in. She had a bottle of wine for this one, candy for the other one. She'd, oh, hi. How's your grandkids? How's your grandmother? You know, takes takes care of all of them, and then your work is done. Yeah. Yeah. Relationship based. Yep. I'd say the one other thing too that is very hard for us as Americans is the lack of communication during processes. Yeah. And so we, for example, had hired an accountant to do, you have to do your taxes in Portugal, even if you don't show income from Portugal and so on and so forth. We were waiting and waiting. We knew what the deadline was. And, like, 2 days before the deadline, we had heard absolutely nothing. And so we called the accountant and and said and, you know, left a message because she didn't pick up the phone. So she calls us back, you know, like the next day or something and says, what's wrong? Are you okay? Is something wrong? We're like, well, no, but you, you know, the cactus are like the last day. They have like a 3 month time. We gave our you our stuff like 4 months ago and we haven't heard anything. And, you know, and, you know, what's going on? She's like, oh, I was so worried. I thought something was wrong. They do not communicate. They don't tell you when things are moving along. They don't tell you if there's a problem. 5 minute literally 5 minutes before the end of the day, we got a phone call saying, I can't get into your Finances account. What's the password? 5 minutes before they were do like and this was a 4 month process. And we went we're you know, we kinda, like, adapted to some of the Portuguese way, and we're like, well, we don't wanna bother them and no. No. No. But this will happen in many things. Right. Many, many, many things. You'll be, like, used to getting a progress report or used to getting asked a question or something. Right. They will not say anything until they're absolutely done or they absolutely have to communicate with you. Well, the other thing when we first moved here too, every answer was no. Yeah. No. Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. You know, it's like but then mysteriously would happen anyway. It would get done. You know, it'd be like, I thought it was no. Everything is impossible until it's not. Yeah. Okay. It's it's it's not they can do attitudes. They can't do attitude. Really don't wanna do it. You know? It's like and then they figure out a way to do it. So if you if your first answer is no, just wait a minute. Now if you think it should be coming today, just wait another day Or 2. And it will come. You know? That was the other thing. It's like so it's a combination of patience and kind of trying to be on top of them too at the same time. Well, you have to know when it's like really serious. Yeah. You actually have to get an answer and then you can try to get one. But very often I say, when you're at the end of your rope, wait another day or 2. And usually it's that next day when you've, like, hit the wall, the next day or 2, whatever it is happens. Doesn't always. Yeah. You know? But Yeah. Things are not I mean, I think that's probably the biggest challenge for folks like us, you know, who have moved that it's like you're used to things working smoothly, you know, and you have a, you know, you have, like, a somebody to call or something to email or some or a chat, you know, to do something to fix it. Here, it's like, it's not always that smooth, you know, to do, you know, things like that. So Right. But you've adapted to this. You know this. Now you live there and the the the this worst thing ever thing with bureaucracy, it wouldn't keep you from it's not it's not making you leave, basically. No. No. No. No. I mean, I think some people get really frustrated. It really depends on your personality. Yeah. I think, you know, it's like if because if you really are, like I mean, you really can't stand that kind of disorganization and stuff, that that will that will impact your culture. Much of Portugal would drive you insane. Yeah. It's very, very laid back. I mean, you know, except for the driving. We always make that exception because I don't know. They get behind the wheel and it's mister Wheeler, missus Wheeler, and they drive 70 in the alleys. They drive 70 on the highways. They drive 70 in the side streets. You have to be careful. You really need to be careful. Okay. That's a good tip, especially for people with littles like me. We don't Yeah. Just be careful. You have to be careful. Perfect. You know, they don't get, like, completely freaked out. It's safe. You just have it's a combination of driving, you know, kind of fast, but also, like, I know myself. I'm not I don't I'm not a fast driver. Diana totally is a speed demon. You know? But I'm not a fast driver, but I but I've learned to be like, you have to kinda be aggressive in these roundabout things. Because if you wait, if you're like, oh my god. I don't know. That that you will never go. You will never go. You have to be like, we're going now. You know? It's like you just have to learn you you learn it pretty quickly. And they also enforce the laws on the highways. You must drive on the right lane unless you're passing. Or if you're in the if you pass in the middle lane and then you wanna pass again, you go over, and then you gotta go back. People have gotten tickets for you can't just hang out in the middle lane. You can't do that. Good to know. I would say one last thing about cars and driving is you don't know what you don't know. Right? It's like in one and I and we didn't learn this until a couple of months ago. You know, somebody said something, did you pay your tax on your car? And I was like, what are you talking about? Yeah. When we bought it, we did. Sure. Yeah. And they're like, no. No. You have to pay every year. I'm like, what? I'm like, this is like, yeah. United States, you pay your sticker and all that other stuff. Yeah. It's Right. You don't really have that here. You know? It's like, so I was like, I didn't know that, but you go and there's a finances site that, like, has, you know, bills you pay, taxes, everything else. And sure enough, sitting there is a bill that was due, like, in January, and then it's, like, June. I'm like, shit. And, of course, nothing happens. I just paid it. But I'm like and I said to somebody among the groups, I'm like, what else is there that I don't know? Yeah. Yes. But you don't know. You don't know. You don't know. You don't know. Yeah. You know? You're gonna make mistakes all the time. Didn't tell us. Oh, by the way, every year you have to pay your taxes. Because they know that you don't know. Yeah. That's right. Knows that. Nobody knows. Right. And that's what living abroad is like. Nobody knows. No. No. Well, thank you. I mean, we've gone way over time for anybody who's still on it. I really appreciate it because I think it's super useful. It's like you you have so many people who wanna move to Portugal, and not only have you done it and done it successfully, but you're you're like a real live person who has real experience for people. You know, it's like, in the wild, there they are. But it's so helpful because people have so many questions. And, of course, we didn't get into, like, the nitty gritty, but to be fair, we're also not relocation experts, like, in terms of, like, we you know, your singular experiences, but, like, you know, if you want to work with someone, you can work with relocation consultants. We have both of all of us have connections for you in that in that regard. We'll put you in touch with people. But just in terms of daily life, I think this was so helpful and insightful, and it's so amazing to see how you are actually living in Portugal now. Like, you're is it? Like, you're, like, old heads at this now. Yeah. And we we would also like to mention that, you know, we wrote the book. Right? A selling one tips on moving to Portugal. It's on ebook on Amazon. I know the big guys. We're not friends with all the big guys right now, but that's where it sits. So just, you know, search on that 101 tips for moving to Portugal. We just, you know, revised it a couple of months ago, so, you know, it's got a lot more resources. Yeah. That we know because it doesn't have the when we we brought it after we first moved here, and so we have a lot more resources now, obviously, you know, being here for three and a half years than we did in the beginning. So, I think it's helpful. I mean, you know, the It also goes through the emotional process. Really, it's not about specifically what visa you should get. There are people who are experts in that. We are experts in what does it take to make a successful transition Yeah. To live in another country and and specifically in Portugal as well. And we deal with things that concern a lot of people like moving your pets. I mean, it seems stupid, but I have to tell you, I think we were probably agonizing as much about our pets and because there are very short lead times on some of the items and you have to make sure that that you only have 10 days to get them all the stuff they need. And the chips they have in the US are not the same as the chips in Europe, so we had to get them chipped twice. You have to have a rabies shot, etcetera. And the timing on that then had to match the timing of the flight, which has because Jake is a big boy, he had to go they had to go into the hold. And so there are temperature requirements. Mhmm. You know, that the flight can't be you know, at any time during the flight, it can't be more than 80 degrees or less than 40 degrees. So, you know, you have to plan the timing of your flight and that has to coincide with the timing of your you know, so it's a lot. It's complicated. Yeah. To do more with children and schools and all the the all that stuff. That's a whole other animal, you know? So Yeah. It it is. I actually just put a blog post up about relocating with your pet. I tried to include every single bit of information if possible because Fabulous. It's a wearable. I find that everyone's like people are like, even if no matter how about how bad it gets, if I can't bring my pets, I won't move about. And it's like, okay. Well, then let's save some lives here and, you know, make sure There's a new I'll just mention this. There's a new service from the people who do the BarkBox for people who have big dogs, particularly, this has been a real problem for them. And they have now BarkAir, which if you're, you know, a bunch of money, I don't know how much it costs, but I think it'll the price will go down as more people use it. But it's designed to be a place where you can go with your big pet and not worry, which a lot of people do when they look at the options they have for big pets. Yeah. It's like flying semi private with your dog. But it but but if that's what it takes to get you removed, then then those are the expenses that it takes. Okay. So thank you. Is there anything else that you wanna add? Anything else that you wanna share? We're doing that, like, co meetup in Porto. You run the queer women in Portugal Facebook community. People may have know about the queer worldwide community. Is there anything else that you all want to share? If anybody has questions, you can find us in the group. You know? So in your group as well. You know? So just, you know, feel free to to you know, we're we're happy to answer questions. You know? So, you know, please don't be shy. I mean, we don't have all the answers for sure, but if we don't have them, you know, we will tell you that, and we can probably direct you to someone who does. And also, I would say if you're interested in Portugal and you've never been here, come for a visit. You know, the best way to really you know, what you won't know what it's like to live here, but I know there are people who, you know, bought houses and everything and never been here. And I would say that's that's scary and maybe not the right choice. You need to come and experience it and decide if it's for you. And then you get a good look because the country is like a lot of places. It's very different from city to city and area to area. And if you really are looking for a spot to land, you wanna make sure it's the right spot because it's heartbreaking and expensive to change your mind. That's right. That's really good advice. Absolutely. Alright. Well, thank you so much. It was so nice spending time with you. Hopefully, I see you in person soon to interview with you. Absolutely. We love it. And it will be in Portugal, obviously, since you're not coming back to the states anytime soon. I don't think so. I'm sorry. No. That's okay. It's a good motive. We'll welcome you with open arms. Exactly. I can't Lots of good food. Gotcha. I can't wait. Alright. Well, thank you. Thanks to everyone who's on the call. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye bye, everyone. All right. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the Adventure Calls podcast. The podcast is brought to you by Rainbow Relocation Strategies, the first and only LGBTQ centered company focused on creating your international relocation strategy, your exit strategy for when you are ready to move abroad. For more information on what we do, check out rainbowrelo.com. That's rainbowrelo.com. You can also follow us on Instagram at rainbowrelo, on TikTok at rainbowrelocation, and you can also find our book, How to Move Abroad and Why it's the Best Thing You'll Do on Amazon if you wanna imprint, or you can go to rainbowreload.comforward/book and pick it up as a PDF. And also, you can join our Queer Expats Worldwide Community, which is where you just heard this conversation from. Go to Facebook, type in Queer Expats Worldwide, and you'll find our free community right there. If you need anything at all in terms of your relocation, please don't hesitate to reach out. The answers are there, and it is possible for you. There's a reason why this podcast is called the Adventure Calls podcast. I don't want you to move from a place of fear. I want you to feel empowered. This is probably one of the best things that you can do even if you're only considering it because of the current political situation. Not everybody dreams of moving abroad. Not everybody thinks about living in another country. So if you happen to be listening to this and you feel inspired, this could be your own call to adventure. So please, follow that call to adventure and start planning your move abroad. We're here to help with anything you need and we'll see you in the next episode.