Supporting your kids throughout the process of moving abroad, with Karlijn Jacobs

How can you support your kids in a country where you’ve never lived? How can you help them thrive abroad?

That’s what we talk about in today’s Adventure Calls podcast episode.

If you’re a parent considering a move abroad or planning for a future as an expat parent, this episode is essential. Moving abroad is overwhelming: visas, housing, language, work, and the safety, security, and happiness of your kids.

Everyone says kids adjust faster than adults, but the truth is, we don’t know exactly how our kids will react. We just want them to have a better life. In this conversation, we explore the factors you as a parent can control in this unpredictable experience.

Relocating abroad with your family can provide your children with better opportunities and a richer cultural and language education with lifelong benefits.

It’s crucial for parents to understand the process from their children’s perspective—how each stage of relocation affects them. This helps you support, listen, and intervene when necessary.

Today, we speak with Karlijn Jacobs, Netherlands-based entrepreneur and founder of Expat Valley. Karlijn is a trained children’s therapist and relocation expert who moved to Shanghai in 2010. After two years, she had her first daughter. After five years in China, Karlijn returned to the Netherlands to give birth to their second daughter.

Now, she works to make international relocation easier and more fun for families through Expat Valley.

Find Karlijn Jacobs online:

Company: Expat Valley
Website: www.expatvalley.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacobskarlijn

Find Rainbow Relocation Strategies across the web:

Services: Rainbow Relocation Strategies | Rainbowrelo.com
Free Community: Queer Expats Worldwide Facebook Community
Instagram: @rainbowrelo
Book: How To Move Abroad

About the Adventure Calls podcast

The Adventure Calls podcast seeks to empower queer folks, our families and allies to move, live and thrive abroad with interviews with relocation experts, queer expats who have successfully relocated and other organizations that give a lens on the LGBTQ+ experience in the world.

The host / producer, Jess Drucker, is the founder of Rainbow Relocation Strategies, a company that centers the experience of queer expats around the world.

Transcript

0:10

Welcome back to the Adventure Called Podcast. I'm your host, Jess Rucker. The mission of this podcast and of my company Rainbow Relocation Strategies is to empower queer folks and your families to follow your call to adventure and move, live, and thrive abroad. Today's episode is really about thriving abroad as a family. This week, I talked to Caroline Jacobs, the founder of Expat Valley, a company that helps facilitate successful relocation experiences for families moving abroad. And if you're a parent considering a move abroad or thinking about having kids in the future when you'll already be an expat, this episode is going to be incredibly useful for you. It can really be so overwhelming to not only think through everything required for your move in terms of like visas, housing, learning the language, getting all your paperwork done, and prioritizing safety, security, and happiness of your kids, creating a safe place in a place you've never lived or possibly never even been to. Now, on some level, everyone will tell you your kids are elastic. They'll adjust faster and better than you, actually. But the truth is, we don't exactly know how our kids will react to it. Actually. But the truth is, we don't exactly know how our kids will react to a new life abroad. And so it's really best to be prepared and understand the experiences that your kids might go through as expats. Now the only thing we want for our kids is a better life. And so in this conversation, we get into the factors that you as a parent can control in what can otherwise be an out of control experience to make sure that you're optimizing for their relocation and integration. Caroline has outlined 6 stages in the relocation timeline in that process, and we go through each stage and talk about how kids are affected throughout those stages. Caroline is originally from the Netherlands. She's a trained children's therapist. She works now in the relocation field as a relocation professional. She moved to Shanghai with her husband in 2010. And after 2 years in Shanghai, they welcomed their first daughter. Then they moved back home to the Netherlands after 5 years in China just in time to give birth to their second daughter. Today, it's Caroline's mission to make international relocation easier and more fun for families. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Let's get into it. Okay. So, Caroline, thank you so much for joining us on for this queer expats worldwide interview. So excited to have you. I think what you are about to share with our audience is something that holds so many people back from actually take taking the leap to to move abroad. These answers that we don't have for our families. And we know that this is something that we wanna do, and we have no idea how it might affect our families. And I think that, of course, we put our kids first all the time. So it's really important to have some of the answers, hopefully, that you're gonna share no pressure, today. But before we do that, can we kick things off a little bit? Can you just tell us sort of, like, where you're based and the work that you do with Expat Valley? Sure. Well, thank you, Jessica, for having me. I always love to take the stage and talk about what I think over the years has grown into my favorite subject. So I'll actually sort of start with the conclusion based on what you were just saying. My career since 2010, which is when my husband took us to Shanghai, China. I'm from the Netherlands originally, has evolved around internationally mobile families and how international relocation impact their children's needs and well-being. And basically, for me, the starting point was, well, ignorance in a way. Ignorance is bliss. So I relocated thinking, like, people are taking care of us. They're taking care of all the practicalities. All the operational aspects of our relocation were supported. Nobody said anything else. So I figured, like, okay, we got this under control. We're doing this. Mhmm. Only to find out that, like, the impact of all the change to your life and the transition that you're managing mentally, it's huge. And we actually when we moved the world, we were just the 2 of us. So it was 2 adult people. We were in our early twenties. I think we were as resilient as can be, and it was still really difficult. We repatriated because of, my youngest daughter actually being on her way. So we were pregnant with our second child. All this was born in China. There's this little long girl walking around here in the Netherlands who will tell people she's half Chinese, and then we get all these funny looks because like, how do you explain that? Well, because she was born in China. It was 2015 when we repatriated. And ever since I really dedicated my career, done loads of floor learning, still doing that every day, learning new things. I think I've hit the point. I've been at the stage of, of, of understanding family relocation experiences where I felt like, okay, this is impossible. It's just really difficult. There's so much happening for families. It's too much. Now thankfully, I'm at the point where I think pretty much everybody, some exceptions here and there, but it might be less than 1%. But everybody that wants to go on an international adventure has a family. Everybody that wants to relocate across borders because they have a place where they really wanna be as a family or a place that they want to leave as a family, I think it's possible. I think it can be done. It's just not always easy. I remember prepping for this conversation, actually, I'm putting it into words in my email. Like, even though you sign up for this as a family, it doesn't mean you need to enjoy all of it all the time. So I hope that for this conversation, we can cover some of these ups and downs, but hopefully supporting your audience in coming to the conclusion that if they wanna do it, they can do it. Yeah. And thank you. Because I I have a positive spin on everything in my mind. So but it is it's really hard. And I think we do, you know, if you have kids, you put your your family first, obviously. And it's like, we wanna do this crazy thing and move. But is it going to be the right thing to do for our kids? And the problem is, and I think a lot of people listening can agree, you can't know. You can't know because if you go or you don't go, you never get the other side of the split screen. So you're either making a decision to do this or not, and there's no way to know if what you did was really the right thing for them. Until you do it and you're either wholly satisfied or not satisfied, and then maybe you can think to yourself, okay, this was right or not. But you there's no way to actually know. I think being prepared is is the most important part. And I think what I'm excited to talk about with you today is, like, helping people see around the corners that they can't see around themselves and also that they don't know are there. So yeah. So let's get into it a little bit. I would like to start by asking you some questions. There are things I don't actually know about you, obviously. But number 1, you did relocate to China. So when you say that it was like when you describe it as being difficult, I think we can all imagine that that would be one of the harder moves that you can make. Can you just share a little bit about what it was like get giving birth in China and, like, starting a family in China? What was the the intercultural feelings around starting a family in China for you? Oh, absolutely. So by the time that, we have gotten married, I think we have been in China for for 2 years. And just to give a little bit about my my professional background. So I was a a therapist when I relocated. So, I was one of these people that felt that that, well, part of your therapy training is that you undergo quite significant assessments yourself. Like, there's never a formal assessment to diagnose you with anything, but they do try to rule out, like, are you signing up for this kind of career for the right reasons? So I kind of thought that I knew myself to a certain degree and that I knew what my brain was capable of, etcetera. So those for by the time that we got pregnant, we kinda went through the emotional roller coaster. So we had all the surprises associated with culture shock and second culture shock, and we can get back to that later. So we were there for about two and a half years. We have gotten married abroad. We were in the interesting position where we felt like, okay, we're not going to go back home because that's not our home. It doesn't make sense to get married there. It wouldn't make sense to get married in Shanghai. I mean, China is a beautiful country, but Shanghai is not necessarily one of the beautiful places in in Mhmm. Shamina. I would highly recommend anybody going there, but more for the nature. So we got married abroad and then we decided like, well, let's just start a family. And in all honesty, I didn't sign up for having that baby in Shanghai. I kinda thought like, okay, this is going to take some time before we get pregnant. And then there's a 9 months of the pregnancy itself. And then I might be pregnant by the time we we repatriate. That was sort of my very innocent thinking. Mhmm. Nature was on our side. Not not on my planning side, but knowing that it can take, it can be difficult to conceive. We didn't have that problem. So, we were pregnant quite unexpectedly very soon. And then we got ourselves into the, yeah, what is it? It's like a maze a little bit. It's like when you when you do things related to children in a home country or at least in a system that you're very familiar and experienced in. So if you if you do things in an environment that your support web network is is, familiar with, then you sort of have this well, there's this African proverb, like, it takes a village to raise a child. We didn't have any of that. We didn't have a support network that understood, our environment. We were very unfamiliar with the whole international healthcare system that all of a sudden became very relevant. I don't think I set a foot into any doctor's office in Shanghai in the 3 years before I got pregnant. So all of a sudden I had to find myself a hospital or some of some sorts. I know it's different in various locations. Shanghai is one of these places where if you're a European expert expats, you usually go to the international facilities, not necessarily the local facilities. That's also what our health care insurance company was actually against. So we have to choose for an international solution. We called the emergency line, even though there was not really any emergency, but the health care insurance did help us navigate a little bit of the road. But basically, we find found ourselves being offered all sorts of fancy care packages by the various hospitals. And it was really difficult actually to navigate the decision making around our our physical well-being. So I do think we ended up confidently making a choice looking at like, where's the best neonatal care unit? Like, what what's the best quality doctors, etcetera. But what we were presented with is do you want like a, like a 1st month baby shoes? Or do you want like a car kits or to transport the baby in the back of a taxi? Like that was sort of what the hospitals were advertising with. Wow. It was a very, very interesting experience. It was very different to have our second daughter in the Netherlands, which actually also brings to mind that I took my birthing file from Shanghai with me to the Netherlands because there were some complications, nothing major and nothing life threatening, but still some complications only to experience the exact same complications again and have everybody tell me that they didn't know about it. I'm like, what did you do with my foul then? Like I gave it to you. Right. So it's just a few examples of you really need to be on top of things as a parent if you're navigating these landscapes. The decision making is complicated. Yeah. As much as possible, make sure that you know what you need or your child needs because the experts might get lost in translation, quite literally speaking. Yeah. Quite literally speaking. And I think, you know, I mean, I think that's quite an adventure to give birth abroad. I I can't I can't I can't imagine. I would like to say that you've all survived and you lived through it. So you, you know, we can say that that was obviously a success. But also between navigating, like, moving from the conversation around navigating hospitals to just like navigating school systems. Right? Like, how do you know? So, like, even if you're not giving birth abroad, that you're bringing your kids, you're still navigating a totally foreign system in terms of education. So I actually wanted to touch on that with you. Like, a lot of the questions I get are around what what kind of schools should I look for with my kids? And from my own experience with clients, I know that there are international schools and public schools obviously everywhere. A lot of people don't realize the international school realm is so rich and there's so many different types of international schools. And I think the questions become like, well, now I'm paying for a private school when at home I would put my kid in public school. Can I put my kid in public school? What are some of the school types, that can you can you sort of like break down the types of international schools and compare that to, like, a public school for your for your child? Absolutely. So when looking at international schools, there one of the most significant differences within the context of international education is the actual curriculum that's being taught. Mhmm. So there's a significant number of international schools out there that teach what they call the International Baccalaureate. It's a curriculum that was specifically designed for international schools around the globe with the idea that there would be some degree of consistency. So it should be noted that in all the years leading up until the diploma program, so the diploma program is the exception, that the curriculum is very much a framework, a teaching style. There's certain quality criteria that are also being monitored by external agencies, but there's also a lot of freedom for the school to adapt the curriculum to what is locally relevant. So an international school in China would teach Mandarin as one of its language subjects, which obviously wouldn't be taught in South America because it wouldn't make all that much sense. But, also, if you look at subject matters, it would also focus on, like, local culture and history, those kind of things. There's international schools that teach that still teach in English. Most IB schools teach in English. Sometimes they're bilingual. Other English medium international schools, as we would call them, would either teach a curriculum very similar to what's being taught in the United States. It would also have accreditation with United States education bodies. So any credits obtained in those schools would be valid back in the States or in universities that that accept American degrees. There's British curriculum international schools out there. And then there's also quite a significant number of international schools that actually teach a national curriculum. So it's like a German international school teaching the German curriculum in German language or bilingual English, German, or a form of the local language as well. So that's curriculum and language itself could be some of the variables to look out for. It should be noted that in many countries, international schools aren't actually regulated by the local ministry of education. So that means that quality control is actually not happening on that national level. So you need you do need to see if there's any sort of accreditation that sort of overarches the school itself. So what's the reputation of the school looking at 3rd party accrediting bodies? So like with an American school, it needs to have its curriculum accredited with one of the the groups back in the states. Same for the British schools, same for any of the national curricula. So that could be that's a complicated one to navigate as a parent. It's an easy question to ask, but there are sadly so some schools out there that are, yeah, looking to benefit from people that don't know how to assess the quality of a school. So I'm not sure if they would give you honest answers if you ask a question, but that would be a big recommendation if you're if you're worried about that. Just ask. And then to to get back to your question about how does that compare to public education, Again, it depends. So public education in some countries is actually of higher quality. The, the, the secondary, the, the graduation, diplomas coming out of those curricula are higher regarded than the quality of education and then average international schools. So it's not a matter of international schools is is always better quality than public education. There are some, rankings out there. PISA, p p I s a, is a ranking that actually looks at, the quality of education on a country level. So it will give parents insight towards, yeah. How does this would a diploma from this country allow my child to study in the next country? So that's it's something to look at, but most importantly, the year actually public or international doesn't matter. You need to be looking at the culture of the school. So how quick is a school to adopt students with an international background? There's international schools out there that actually have a very large local demographic, and international students report that they don't feel at home as much because this the the the student body isn't as accepting of international students. And there's public schools out there that offer amazing transitions programs for international students. And there's great language lessons and it's government subsidized because obviously public schools could be a very interesting choice from a cost perspective. So that's really another thing to look at. There is no easy right or wrong wrong kind of approach with this. And to make matters more complicated in the end Oh, please. Yeah. Here you go. You asked. Right? I did ask. In the end, it always boils down to what's the long term future plan of your family. So are you planning to stay in a country long term, like really long term? You you your child might meet a local and they get married there and all of you live there for the rest of your lives. Or is this a temporary thing? And if it is temporary, then are you planning to repatriate back to your home country after living abroad? Or are you planning to go to yet another country afterwards? So when I'm I'm working on the template. As soon as I have it finished, I'll make sure to share it with you. But it's like this little template to help families plan for the future of their children and think about, like, okay, what school choice actually works thinking about our long term plan? A lot of people that think about international relocation are very focused about the a to b move home to host country or home to foreign place. But ideally, if if if I can make a recommendation and give some tips here, try and think about the long term plan. So not just focus on this first transition, which is massive. And and obviously, it's that's a lot in itself to manage. But think ahead a little bit. Like, what are we preparing our children for? Are we preparing them for returning back to whatever country that you're from now? If you're, a French national and you need to be back in France 5 years down the road, then what grade would your would your child enter upon repatriation? Do they need to speak the language fluently? Because just speaking a language at home isn't going to allow them to tap into the the terminology and vocabulary and the spelling and and the grammar of their home language, if they haven't been reading and writing it for 5 years, for example. That's interesting. Yeah. I think what I know from a a lot of people that I work with or that are in our our Facebook group and probably who who who I connect with most, there's a feeling right now, mostly Americans, right, in that I deal with. And there's a feeling right now that people should move somewhere in Europe, And there's a lot of kind of anywhere in Europe, just get to Europe. But I think, you know, Portugal, Spain, the Netherlands is big with Americans because of the DAFT fees, the the DAFT. And then stay there and that whatever country you choose until you get your EU citizenship. And then maybe there's more freedom to relocate across Europe. I do think people are either interested mostly in in spending some time abroad and then repatriating back or or moving somewhere else in Europe and having that freedom, which, I mean, yes, obviously. But those are 2 great options. But that's for primarily, I I would say the the audience, I would guess, who's listening to this or watching this conversation. But you're right in that. So so then what? You know? I mean, there are so many options. I think, you know, you don't even realize that there are, yeah, French schools and German schools. In almost every city that you're looking at, there's also at least one French school and one German school, at least. There's an American school somewhere. There and then there's a lot of IB schools, the International Baccalaureate or however you say it schools. And then there's also British Schools, which you have to think about as an American because it's like your child will be learning about the king, you know, and like a totally different type of education and not the local educate not like the local history as much either. That'll be more of like a British focus. Right? So there's a lot to consider. Any templates you wanna share, anything you wanna share after, we can always link to, of course, in in post. But just in general, I think your advice on, like like, sussing out the quality of the school is seems really important. But, like, how do you know like, can you give any advice on I think you can look at a Facebook group for the school, but you can't you still don't know those parents either. So, you know, everyone Like leaving in a restaurant review. Like, it doesn't tell you everything about the restaurant. It tells you something, but, yeah, to your point, you don't know the demographics of who for whom it is a success, and especially in the international community. I mean, we have a lot of things in common with each other, but we're also very, very different. Like, web if you're an international planning to be in a foreign country long term, you have different expectations of a school than if it's a temporary thing and you'll be in and out in 2 years. If this is your first international assignment and you're a non English speaking family, you have different needs than if your child has been accustomed to English as a school language. And this is transition where you're looking for more educational continuity in an international system. There's there's really there's so many variables. Yeah. I don't I mean, imagine you. You're like, you have been in China for 5 years. And then if you had gone on and just moved to Germany instead of being the Netherlands, your idea of what is good or bad or or hard or easy to navigate would be totally different because you had just been in such a foreign place and adapted there. So, yeah, it's it is really all relative. I'm sorry that we don't have answers for everybody listening. But it it it really I think that it is the that's the a huge part of your relocation journey if you are a parent, is figuring something. And just to to come again, give it a positive spin, there is no right or wrong with these with these kind of considerations or decisions. We repatriated back to the small town where my husband grew up. We didn't have educational options here. I mean, I would have wanted to give my children the opportunity to be educated in a much more diverse school than that we could choose because it's just not there. It's all very, very small town wide. Not nothing. I mean, there's it's great people, but it's yeah. It's not an outlook into what the real world world is like. So Right. And I do want to reassure your audience, like, there's no right and wrong decisions, but it really helps to think about the educational continuity, the language differences. What support is your child actually getting in a school? And children are very resilient, which is a good thing. But then we don't need to push them through unnecessary hardship unknowingly. And I think that's the key word. If you as a parent realize that your child, because of the decisions that you're making and the options that are available and the limitations that you need to factor in, if you know that your child isn't going to get much language support because the school is quite unfamiliar with adopting international students and there's no formal programs in place, that takes more support of you as a parent, more patience, more giving the child time and permission to grieve, more perhaps external support that you now need to organize for your child. And sometimes you're very blessed with the opportunity to sign up, sign your children up for school where they will get excellent language training. They will have a very easy transition when it comes to curricular differences. And there's an amazing transition program in place that understands that new students need a buddy in their 1st weeks of school and anything in between. And it's all doable, but it really helps as a parent if you're, yeah, as much as possible on top of this. So there's 2 things I wanna ask before we get to what I would consider, like, the meat and potatoes of this, which is really going through the stages of relocation from a kid's perspective, from a student's perspective, but from a kid's perspective. But the one thing I do, want to clarify is when you are relocating with kids, your kids become most likely what's called a TCK. And this is sort of like lingo that you, like, get involved with once you move abroad and kids know that they can label themselves TCKs. Right? Like they're aware that they belong to this community. Can you explain what a TCK is and just sort of what's the culture around that? Sure. Yeah. I'd love to. And actually, I mean, yes, there's a lot of kids that notice about themselves And I meet at least one person every week. And I'm like, did you know that you're a TCK? And they're like, a what? So here we go. There might be people listening in your audience, self diagnosing as a TCK after, hearing us out. So TCK is an acronym. It stands for 3rd culture kit or 3rd culture kits. And the ID is that if you're moving, if you spend part of your development week or so part of your childhood in a country that's not your passport country, then by default you'll be comma TCK. What happens is the, the three cultures that we're throwing into the mix are, I already referenced it, the passport culture, which might in some instances actually be a country that a child has never lived in. So for the first one and a half years of my daughter's life, she was very much a Dutch citizen and she had never lived in the country. Like she was, how Dutch was she then? Well, her passport is very Dutch. Then there's the geographical countries that a child lives in. There could be 1 or multiple. So in the instance of my daughter, she was born in China and now she's in the Netherlands. So there's 2 geographical countries that are very, relevant to her upbringing. And then there's this 3rd cultural space, which is very, it can be pointed out on the map. So it's, it's not there, it doesn't actually exist. It's this sort of in between space of having that international experience of not belonging to your passport country completely because you grew up in a different country and you've had all those cultural influences, but you were not, local to your for to to those geographical countries either because you were a foreign child. So that intercultural space is really what makes it that third culture and what the the term comes from. And I think the easiest way to sort of explain what it does to people is that you could have a person who has a French passport and they were born in China and they meet with somebody who has a German passport and they were based in Germany. And these two people who have nothing in common when you look at, like, the geographical passport, whatever combinations, They hit it off together because they understand what it means to have been based in a foreign country, to not fit back in at home, like, in your home country. Like, your your relatives back home consider you're a foreigner, but the place where you're living also considers you a foreigner. So basically you don't belong anywhere, but you feel at home everywhere. That's something that a lot of TCKs report. And it's not something to worry about actually. There's a there's a huge TCK community out there. I know the United States had a very famous TCK president. Mhmm. He did quite alright. Yeah. He was able to show off his skillset. The current labor market really fancies TCK skills. It's people that are usually multilingual. They're quite adoptable, adoptable to change. They're out of the box thinkers. They're usually above average creative. Multilingualism also has an influence on your intelligence usually. So there's all these great assets that come with being a TCK, but it does really help to know if and that you're 1. It helps for kids to know that they're TCKs because, yeah, people will ask you stupid questions, excuse my French, people will ask you, where are you from? And that's the question that a TCK really struggles to answer. Yeah. Wow. That was an excellent summary. Thank you so much. That was really, really well described. And also I have to say for someone, you know, I I didn't live abroad as a child, but I did live abroad when I was like 19 to 25 and beyond. But I was in very formative years. And so even though I was a little bit older than the typical TCK, I fully 100% identify with that. All of my, like, views are European because all of my actual understanding of how the world works formed when I was living in in in Europe. And so I've I've I've very much, understand that. And also being at, like, not not being from anywhere, but feeling at home everywhere is 100%. Like, I have I have multiple personalities. Like, when I land in London, I live in London. Like, you could hand me a set of keys and I would say, okay. Fine. I live here now. Like, this is it. When I'm in Germany, I have a whole different thing. I do a lot more like, mhmm, yo yo, and I'm a totally different person. So I I I I truly, identify, with that as well. But you bring up an interesting point, and this is one last thing I wanted to hit. Like I said before, we we go through the stages of relocation with kids, and it's this. So what's interesting then is your kid, you know, is growing up in a different country than you did. The school has different customs, you know, for like an American, you know, there aren't Friday night football games. There's no cheerleaders to talk about anywhere else. The band means some there's no be joining the band or something like that. Like all of these, like, very American traditions, your child won't have those. They won't grow up with them. They'll know them from movies just like the local kids will know them from movies. But and they'll know that you have that. But you're raising a kid in a different way. And so one thing I wanted to ask you about is, like, well, how does the family dynamic change or what's interesting or different about a family where the parents are from one country, but the kids are actually kind of from, obviously, another country? Yeah. We know of a lot of families that report that that this is complicated. And especially with teenagers, we often hear that that disconnect sort of not sure how what to what the correct English word here is like extrapolates almost because of the it's already difficult to stay connected to your teenage children. And then if you if you're sort of, you're rooted, this is also different. It makes it even more complicated. There's various ways in which family dynamics are impacted. It also differs per those stages of relocation that we keep hinting towards. And we'll, we'll also talk about it. It's one of these things where it already makes a huge difference if parents realize that this is happening. So I think you've had this personal experience. I, I relate to that as well. There was so much of what I was bringing with me when first relocating to China, which I thought was human nature. Because everything I had known up until that point constantly confirms my norms, my values, my belief systems. There was a lot of overlap between what I was being taught at home and what I was being taught in school and what my friends were saying. I mean, of course, my friends and my parents didn't always agree on, but it was like those differences were very small compared to all of a sudden being confronted by a different culture and then realizing like, oh, wow. This is like, this is a completely different ball game. I still remember to this day and it's been So 2010, it's been almost 15 years. I remember where I was when culture Show really hit me in the face. I was standing on this bridge, this 14 way, 14 lane street, as they have them in Shanghai. We don't have them anywhere in this entire country. And I was standing on that bridge, sort of looking at all the traffic and all the people and thinking, all these people are crazy. And then it hit me like, that's not how this works. So if you think everybody's crazy, then you're the crazy one. And that's when I realized I was constantly projecting something that I was very familiar with on all these people. Right. Frustrated, misunderstood. I think I was young enough. I think that helps. So for anybody, whether you're young with kids or you consider yourself still very young, but your kids are teenagers or whatever combination works in your family. But having that understanding that everybody in the end is human beings with positive intentions, but culture does significantly influence norms and values. So your kids are being, there's a, there's going to be a difference between what your children are experiencing in school, the the dynamics with their teachers. You might be used to a certain dynamic with teachers in your home country, perhaps where it's quite, a level playing field. There's not a whole hierarchy between students and teachers, and your child might be in a school where it's very, very different. So being open minded makes a huge difference. Being observant towards what is, what are my child's experiences really like? And then to add to that, there's also a huge opportunity there to really, develop consciously invest in what's our family culture. So what is part of what we think is important, and how do we bring this how do we bring that with us no matter where we are? So when we were in Shanghai, we realized that we have plenty of funny Dutch, I'll leave it with holidays. It's almost like a vacation because of some sort of religious holiday that nobody celebrates also not back home. Like it didn't make any sense to us. It already didn't really make sense here, but everybody had a national holiday. So well, you just take it. And then in a foreign country, you realize like, okay, so which of these celebrations are really actually important to to our family and what do we adopt? What there's also celebrations out of Chinese culture that we really appreciated. It's been it's been almost 10 years now. So the chopsticks don't come out as frequently as they used to. But then for the 1st 2 years that we were back home, we would eat the majority of our meals with chopsticks, even when it was not Asian food. So as a family, and that's not just parents deciding for their children. That's a wonderful conversation to have together with your children. What family traditions, from our home country do we want to still have while we live abroad? And when you repatriate or you've been abroad in the past, what traditions and and celebrations and and aspects of culture do we want to maintain while we're, yeah, in the next place? Yeah. I real I really like that. Yeah. That that's that's so true. I I really like how you said that. And then, you know, also, I think just it is really important because it's like, how do you assess because at some point, you have to let go. Like, you you have a kid in China and they're in school, for example. You know, if if this is how it's done, you you can't fight it. Right? Like, this is how it's done. You have to let go of your children more than you would think you had to, you know, at in your in your home country. But I think that's why it's really important that, yes, you should definitely have, like, local friends and you should assimilate locally, and that's really important. But you actually really is I think even especially as a parent, need a community of expats, whether they are also American expats, for example, just with the audience we're talking to mostly, or just Western expats, but, like, expats who understand, like, where you're coming from, what your expectations are, but maybe have been here a little bit longer and can bridge that gap for you because Yep. You can't figure that all out on your own. I mean, you can, but that's, like, a big stressor. Yeah. I have so many things she needs to do. That bridge. Right? Yep. Yeah. So I think that's always important. People really wanna, like, assimilate and, like, get local and, like, you should and and definitely you should. But I just think that the expat community, those are the thing locals don't know your perspective. So they they've never lived abroad. Like, they're just living and you're in their life. And so they can't bridge that gap for you most likely. It's it's back to that African proverb of how it takes a village, but in an international or in, in a foreign environment, having those locals help, help the, it's an important aspect of your village. They help you navigate part of the landscape that internationals might also be struggling with. But international share another part of the experience with you and therefore are yeah, a huge added value to your village. I I making use of the opportunity, I would also like to normalize in this context that it's very okay that you have people that you sort of have in the first few months of living abroad. And then gradually you move on to people that are closer connected to, like your real people. Yeah. We went through a whole bunch of friends and not in a negative way, but in those in those 1st few months, simply because we were craving connection and we're trying to get our feet on the ground. And then slowly but steadily, we developed some lifelong friendships just because it takes more time to to get yeah. To get to know each other. It's it's building your life back up from the ground. Yeah. No. That that's that's absolutely true. There are people that, at first, they're your entire world. They see you twice or 3 times a week. And then 6 months later, you don't even talk to that person really anymore. And it's not bad. You just you just don't serve a a purpose for each other anymore. Yeah. And people find their own ways. Like Yeah. Exactly. I don't think I've left anybody out there alone. It's it's more of that they're all, yeah, navigating until you you you find the right path. Yeah. A 100%. Okay. Let's get to the stage that we're hinting at this whole time. No. And I I love this framework that you've set up and, you know, and that that you use in your work. And I think it's really important to understand from a child's perspective. So there are stages of expat life that we all go through when we move abroad. But looking at it from a kid's perspective, I think is, like, so so important. And so I'll kick you off here. But the first stage of a relocation really is is when when you decide to tell the kids, hey, by the way, we're doing something. And I think you called this stage 1 is involvement. Yeah. True. So what we have is we borrow from 6 stages of transition as they were described in the book of 3rd culture kids. I think the model was from David Pollock. He was one of the original authors, and I think they've done their 3rd edition some years ago. So stage 1 involvement is really the stage in which you know that you're moving, but you're but the physical preparations haven't happened yet. So there's this it it's happening in your brain, the change. It's it's the mental preparation for an upcoming relocation. Thinking about, like, my career, supporting families in different parts of context, a lot of corporate sponsored relocations back in the days. And now I sound very old. But people would have months, sometimes even up to a year of this involvement stage. So there's a lot of time to think about how do we prepare the children, when do we tell them, etcetera. The reality these days, life just goes so much faster. This involvement stage could be very short. It might not even exist entirely. But really from a child's perspective, the starting point is the moment when, as a parent, you sit your kids down and you have that conversation and you inform them that you're moving. Some families actually decide to involve their children more actively in the decision making itself. That's really up to a family's unique dynamics, the ages of the children, the, the options that you have. Sometimes it's not really a choice for anybody. Like you really just, it's, it's going to happen whether you like it or not. And then what's also an important aspect of that involvement stage is that when, as soon as the children know, they're going to have questions in, in, corporate sponsored context. We often talk to, to people about like, one of the key questions that children go to bed with and wake up with the next day is like, why is my parents job so important that we have to move? And it might sound very obvious and straightforward, but actually sitting down a couple more times to figure out like what's happening in my child's brain. How are they processing this news? What question does it trigger? And another aspect is that children are telling their loved ones. So they're even though you, you probably have told your own parents already about the upcoming move and managed their grief to a certain degree as far as you can manage that proactively about that they'll be missing their grandchildren and the relationship will be very different than what everybody knew. Kids don't want to tell their grandparents by themselves. They will have to tell their best friend in school that they're moving. Like maybe they'll finish the school year together, but then after the long school break, there's going to be an empty seat in the classroom. So yeah, even though the involvement stage is not a very intensive one, looking at like everything that needs to be organized because that's next, that's stage 2. But it's mentally it's it's it's a heavy one. Yeah. For sure. I mean, they that's their awareness that their world is changing. You know? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And then, like you said, like, who you know, for for someone who's more of, like, a self initiated expat, that's more like, you know, there's a process of just, like, the visa application process. So it's like, you know, until you actually get that all done, you're still in the idea phase. And then you get get word back that, you know, the visa's through and you're accepted and you're actually doing this. And then I I assume that that then moves us on to to stage 2. Yeah. True. So stage 2 is when the the physical preparations start happening. So you know this is really happening. You might have already booked the date of your actual, move. So that whether that's by car or by plane or however you physically relocate yourself from a to b. But, like, there's, like, a set time frame and there's a checklist of everything that needs to happen. And what often happens in this stage, I mean, it's a lot. There's a lot of things that you need to organize. There's all sorts of If you've done domestic moves, you might have an idea of like all the paperwork that you need to organize just for your house alone. But if you haven't, then yeah. You'll be surprised with how much is actually coming at you. And again, all very doable, but it's long checklists and many details. And sometimes really procedures that make you chase your own tail because like, it's actually impossible. It's going to come down to somebody being willing to help you and not necessarily the processes and the systems being designed for emigration. And what's really important to keep in mind is that your children are going through a mental preparation and a physical preparation too. So one of my favorite examples to bring this stage to life from a child's perspective is if you think about what your child is going to miss, it's not only going to be the straightforward things. It is going to be the straightforward things. They're going to miss their friends. They're going to miss their family. They're going to miss their school. They're going to miss their hobbies. I mean, there's this, inside out movie that does an excellent job. It was a domestic US US movie, though. I mean, one state to another in the US is as significant as moving countries within Europe. You're right. That's a good movie for this, actually. That's a great movie. And Yeah. One of the things that I love about that movie is how it shows that if you're moving, part of your identity might just not be able to continue because it doesn't exist in that place. So the girl in this movie, Ravey, she's a big ice skater or ice walkier, and I'm not sure where she moved to. I think it was somewhere in California. San Francisco. We watched it a lot. Sorry. It's just not as much of a thing there. I do I do think in the second movie, she picked it up one way or another. So Right. We'll not tell you how that happened, but but but good for her. But that's another thing that as a parent, you might not realize this. Like, oh, you're just telling your kids like, hey, we're stopping this sport or this will be, will, will. Yeah. Well, it will be your last lesson or your last training or your last game at one point. But that's one of the important aspects of really looking ahead. Like, okay, what are we going to do in our future destination? Or if we don't know the answer to the what question, at least do make sure that your child realizes, like, we're going to find you new places that are unique to your identity. Because school is something that everybody does. It's the hobbies, the interests, the passions. That's where a child can really express themselves much more fully. And then another little example is, I always love giving the kids like an old camera phone or, have allowing them to collect their own memories. And one of my favorite examples is of this mom telling me at one point that her child took, I don't know how many pictures of the neighbor's cap with a very simple explanation of that's who Michael would you miss? Like he walks to school with me and like he takes off. And it's a, it's a silly example of something that as an adult, like, of course, you know, the neighbor has a cat, but you don't think about how your kid is going to move, miss that animal as part of their life. So as much as possible, giving children autonomy and control over that, that goodbyes and what it is that they want to say goodbye to and what it is that they want to bring memories of, it can make a huge difference. I mean, any study or model about how to prepare children for transition is really focused on doing good goodbyes, saying proper farewells, like really making sure as much as possible that there's closure. And one thing that doesn't help kids is to think ahead. Like as an adult, you're mentally framed to think ahead. Like there's this goal of work. There's this very long checklist that I need to process, but it's all worth it because in the future, in this next place, my life is going to be such and so. For kids, it doesn't work the same way. They're very focused on everything that they're going to lose, they need you to let them be focused on that. Yeah. That's actually really interesting because they have no framework for, like, I'm moving to Japan or something. Right? Like, they'd only have it. That doesn't mean anything to them. But closure is really important. And how do you have any tips on, like, managing stress or anxiety for kids before they go? Because you might my instinct would be like, but we're gonna live by the beach or, you know, but you're gonna get to do these things. But, like, you're saying not looking ahead. So how do you manage their stress and anxiety? I think validating that what they're thinking about, validating their emotions, reassuring them that it that it's okay to feel upset. Showing your own emotions a little bit. Parents tend to be like, especially if their kids are struggling, then a lot of parents, I'm I'm guilty of that. Like, I put up my brave face and I sort of role model what it should look like. Whereas, actually, the the affirmation that my kids are looking for is that I show them or tell them at least, like, okay, I'm going to miss my parents too or I'm going to yeah. I it's again, you don't need to like all of it every step of the way. And it's very much okay to show your kids that the saying goodbye part is painful and that that's very normal. Having said that, if kids are really struggling to regulate that emotion, if they're, if they're 100% sad all of the time, that's perhaps a little bit too much. So then supporting them with that emotional regulation, finding times and places to have that grief, to express that grief, but also saying, okay, well, for today, this is refocus our attention on something else. Yeah. We we should but that's, I mean, that's emotional recognition tips, that that those work all the time. That's not just relocation specific. It's very much okay to validate emotions, but we don't need to validate all of it all the time. Right. Exactly. No. A 100%. Yes. Okay. So so that's that's all really helpful. And is there is there ever a time I know we're moving on soon to the next stage, but is there ever a time where at this stage, it's like, maybe this isn't the right thing? Like, maybe this isn't the right thing for our for our kids. In this stage and the next one up until the very last one, you'll be thinking at times like, did we do the right thing? I think it's it's a very normal thought to have that doubt and that insecurity. And as with any parenting, like you don't really know that you're doing a good job until they're like 40 and they tell you that, that they turned out okay. Right? So, so there's a bit of a waiting game. I'm thinking if there's like any very specific moments that could be triggering. In my experience, I mean, it's, it's different for every family. There's not a one size fits all with any of this. What usually happens is that there's a lot of doubt somewhere in the settling, in the entry stage. So we'll sort of, we'll go to that one and then I'll, I'll touch on this some more. I can actually rather quick about the 3rd stage, the transit stage. Because transit is anything between leaving your permanent home or your in in whatever country you were in before, arriving in your new permanent residence in in the country that you moved to. So that could be a matter of days or just leaving home in the morning, arriving, in your new place the next, the next evening. It could also be a matter of weeks. I mean, looking at the housing market in many countries around the globe, you most likely end up in a hotel or some form of temporary accommodation before you find your your new permanent residence. But it's a really difficult stage to really because it could be that because there's all these, like, sort of logistical, practical variables. There's not really a, this is what the experience is like other than that these very first impressions, which are significant from a child's perspective. And sometimes even literally like kneel down next to your child when you just arrived at the airport and look at whatever it is that they're seeing from their height, from their perspective. Give them a big hug and then just realize that everything in that moment, all their senses are stimulated in a different way than they were back home. It's different sounds, different smells, different humidity, different temperature, different everything. It's also usually the time where a lot of emotions for adults come into play. So when you finally finish that checklist and you're sitting in the airplane, that's when it really hits you. So that's something to prepare yourself for. I don't think I left a single tier in the months leading up to our departure to China up until the first hour in the airplane. And my husband was really worried about me. And between plane. And my husband was really worried about me. And between sobbing, I was able to explain to him, like, I think I'm okay. This is just everything coming out all at once. And like, I don't really know how to control this right now. But I promise to, to touch on stage 4. So the entry stage, and this is one that I think a lot of people underestimate. Like, you kind of sign up for like all the cultural differences. Like, especially if it's a significant move. Don't underestimate the ones where you think, oh, cultural differences are smaller. So this is going to be easier because that underestimate actually makes it usually a lot more tricky. Like, I wasn't surprised by any of Chinese cultural differences because I knew they were going to be huge. Whereas if you kind of think like, oh, this will be alright because the cultural differences are small, they're still going to be huge and you underestimated them and they catch you by surprise. I can attest to that. The hardest place I ever had to fit in was moving to the UK. I thought it would be so similar enough. They speak English, all that and that, and that was my 4th country even. But that was the hardest for me to actually assimilate to because I took it for granted, like you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a, that's a little warning. The other warning about that entry stage, about that settling in period is again, we tend to think about our checklist as if that's what sort of the stage in itself. So as soon as you've found your house, your Internet's working, you have a TV connection, You signed up your kids for school. They might have even started. Had their 1st weeks in school already. You had some play dates like 3 months in or so. A lot of people think, okay, we're settled in. We're good now. And that's not how it works. It takes 4 to 6 months. Sometimes even a little bit longer. Usually there's this second culture shock that just hits you right in the face. It's realizing that you were thinking that you would find a good in your life and all of a sudden you realize that going to the supermarket still takes 4 hours and you forgot half of what you actually needed. Mhmm. Like, I knew that I was going to have a difficult time finding, like, food I enjoy. I didn't realize that I would miss the local supermarket from the Netherlands. Like, if there's one thing that I really, really, really missed was just the ease of shopping in a familiar environment. I didn't realize that that was going to happen. Yeah. But I think there's something about, like, initially, like you're saying, everyone knows it's gonna be hard. Then I think what happens is it's like a buildup of constant failures, both large and small, just buying the wrong thing every time or still not understanding something or not being able to get change fast enough to pay with a new currency. And it's just like a constant buildup of failures. Even if they're tiny, it's not like, oh, you're failing. It's just these little things. And then you're right. Like, 4 something months in, you just you kinda lose it again. Like, this is the stupidest thing I've ever done. Why do we do this? It's super it all takes too much energy then. Like all the things that in in your life back home, don't take any energy. Like, you don't even think about them twice. Like, but all of a sudden the traffic rules are different. Like, how does this work? And I'm not, I'm not talking about like the, the big rules because they're usually quite consistent. But it's like the, the small things like in the Netherlands, we wait for, event life. If there's no other traffic, you you wait. That's the rule. That's what you do. In China, traffic rules are applied in hindsight. So if there's an issue, then, then we look at who was actually at fault and then there to blame. But like, other than that, you sort of everybody does their thing and we make it work as efficient as possible. And it has nothing to do with, like, what's the rule and what's the situation at that. So it's all these little things that then really yeah. They just catch up on you. My husband and I, we have this rule between the 2 of us. Like, if one of us wants to go back, we would go back together. Even if we would have a big mess to to figure out in the end. But that was sort of our But if one of us wanted to go back, we would give it another month. And I actually put in my, my one month notice at one point. I told him like, I'm done. I like, I'm, I still feel miserable. It was about 5 months in. We were approaching the holidays, like the, the December holiday season. And I just felt like I can't, like if I wake up feeling like this every day for the next 2 years and our checklist was finished. So there was nothing that I felt that I could change. And I realized like I will feel miserable for the next 2 years. I might as well call it quits now. Like, why wait until I'm depressed? Like, this is it. And he, he, I mean, he tried his best to, to reassure me, but he did accept my 1 month notice. But the, the, it allowed me to sort of accept my situation a little bit more because all of a sudden I, I at least gained some sense of control. But also I think what ended up making us stay and extend the contract 3 more times is is just more time. It's it was realizing that 2 weeks later, it was not easy still, but it was a little bit easier. And a week later, it was a little bit more easy. And that's when when sort of the the skills were balancing out a little bit better. And I realized, like, okay. So if it's going to be easier every day, then I can wait this out. Like, it's fine. Like, I can do that. Yeah. Yeah. And you will adapt. And knowing that for yourself, it's important then also to know that for your for your kids too and for your family where it's like they are going to hate it and hate you probably, like, throughout this, but it will get and and it will get so much easier for them, I think, faster. I'm making assumptions, but from what I understand, only because the language learning does go more quickly. You know, things certain things that really help you assimilate does kind of go more quickly. I don't wanna gloss over something though that it would be easy to gloss over. You you said once you get everything set up, you still go through the 2nd stage of of homesickness or whatever. But Yeah. Let's talk about that time where you're getting things set up because that's actually a time where your kids need consistency, especially if they're young, but where everything's a mess. That's where you're trying to open bank accounts and you've gotta do this before that, but you can't do this until you do that. But if you don't have this, you can't do this. And so Yes. You have to be the mess. What that what is that time like for kids and how do you sort of best optimize for that? So what I when working with families, what I try to advise them as much as possible is Rome wasn't built in a day. And I know that's not the official saying, but, like, let's use it the way that most people understand it. A lot of people want to work through that checklist as fast as possible. So on the one hand, I I make I give them that frame, like, from a mental well-being perspective, you're going to need 6 months. So if you're gonna need 6 months anyway to really feel at home and also give yourself 6 months to really feel at home, like you don't need to unpack all your boxes within the 1st month. Just the other day, I was actually talking to a family and this mom was like it was a traditional family unit. Father moved for his job, very demanding job. So very different family dynamics immediately from arriving in, in the host country because all of a sudden he was working 60, 70 hours. Probably it will get better over time, but like that was the reality. And she quit her job or at least paused her career to help the kids settle in. And what we were talking about is that she sort of had this idea of, okay, I need to get the kids to school and I need to get, play dates set up and I need to get the boxes unpacked and this and that. And then the kids were sort of, where's this? Where's that? Where's it? Like, make this a thing. Like once a week, check-in with everybody. What do we need? Find it together. Manage expectations. Like you might want this. I want it for you too. It's not going to happen this week. It's just not a realistic goal. And rather like don't set up for failure, but manage those expectations from the get go. And as much as possible, keep like a family calendar that focuses on family life. Mhmm. If you, if you're the type of family that usually does like an outing as a family every every month or so, that makes that, that takes priority over unpacking more boxes or getting more things done from your to do list. So Right. Make sure that those family traditions are in place. If there's like favorite food from your home country, that's probably the one meal that you do want to find one way or another. Even if you have to say important. Whereas, if you don't cook 5 nights out of 7 and you're from a place where you used to cook every night back home, but it's just too much, then be graceful to yourself because you you need any spare battery to to be graceful to your kids. Oh, absolutely. The same family, actually, we were talking about how their kids had their 1st week of school. And one of the kids were was all of a sudden sort of using her baby voice again. And like they were fighting and bickering amongst themselves quite a lot. It's very normal to see from a psychological perspective, we will call it regression. That which sounds very serious, but it's like a, a, it's not meant as a serious thing. It's like if your kids need a lot of energy in one place, it's very normal that certain things that you're not used to from them, it sort of reappears in your household and it's part of that transition stage. So you don't need to be extra, super more strict to get them to behave. Like, of course you don't want them to hurt each other or hurt themselves or like be absolutely disrespectful or, like, within reason, but it's not your parenting that's fainting. It's they need a little bit more space. They need a little bit more time. They can't behave as as well as you might be used to from them because they're yeah. A lot of their energy is just focusing on together. Right? For them, just keeping it together. And then after, like, the 4 to 6 month mark, let's just say that. I mean, and it really is different for everyone. But, like, just in theoretically, when things when when things get easier and easier and easier, that's when things kinda move on to stage 5. And Yeah. And that's where that's kind of where you sit for a while in stage 5. Can you talk about what that is? So stage 5, we call it reengagement. It's basically where you're living a world that there's a rhythm to your life. It's not going to be an exact replica of what you were used to back home. But it's also not going to be emotionally draining or very time consuming. Or you've established your rhythm and it works for your family. It works for all family members. So you've moved past the the buddies in school that were the great match to your personality. You've moved past friends that you're hanging out with for the, because they have same age children as your, and as your family does, but it's not a very good click. Like, you've you've you've found your people, you found your places, you have perhaps new favorites in that foreign country. So it could be if we're looking at, like, a relocation with, with an end date, then it's probably up until 4, 3, 4 months before you, your, your end date or your next, move is coming into site. So that re engagement stage could take multiple years. If we look at sort of what the relocation does in context of emotions and those kind of things, it's rather stable usually. But where it does get fascinating is that this is where your home, your family back home all of a sudden becomes a factor in in in your well-being. Because things could happen back home. It could be for very negative reasons that something is happening or you're at a distance or what do you do? At one point, we have a significant life event happening back home. And my husband and I were planning for a short trip to Hong Kong. We had everything booked, like fancy hotel, like also and we just, we just let it go the entire vacation. We realized like, it's horrible that something happens, but the timing couldn't have been better because we had a long weekend anyway. So we just flew back for 4 days to be with our family. So we've we've also had situations where we simply we couldn't. Like financially and from a time perspective, we just couldn't be there when things were happening. And that's that's really complicated. So Yeah. It's true. It's not it's not just like death or whatever. It's also like weddings or like joyous occasions, you know, it's you're missing all of life back home. And so, you know, and so are your kids and they're missing their if they're in touch with their friends still and their friends have a a big something, something awesome and they know about it, it can that I I imagine that can be really tough for them to to miss. Absolutely. Significant life events that otherwise that that would like imagine moving away and you were part of a sports team and all of a sudden they win their league or something. Like you, you, you can picture yourself being there, but you weren't there for it. So there's, there's a lot of that. To turn that into a bit of a tip or advice, it helps to think about these situations before they actually happen. So that you as a family have a little bit of a plan or a strategy. Like if such and so happens, then what would we try and do? Not to set it in stone because when it really happens, there's always circumstances that you can't foresee. But to think about these, these life events happening back home, it does give you a bit of preparation if something actually happens. And another thing not to underestimate, it's it's home visits itself. Like a lot of people, they, they plan to go home every so often. Often once a year, we got ourselves into the habit quite quickly to do a home visit and then take a few more days for ourselves. Like sometimes we would do like a layover between Europe and China. And then people would joke like, oh, you're taking a vacation from your vacation. And we would smile and nod and say to ourselves like, this was not a vacation. That's especially not when we have the kids. I love being able to have my my parents, be around, my daughter, my my in laws. It was it was always a blessing to really have that true bonding time. It's not vacation. It's really, really, really energy draining. It's you have a jet lag or you don't if you don't have a jet lag, it's still energy draining. I recently spoke to one of the experts in our network and she actually made her entire, like, career out of happy trips home and and advising families into how do you plan for a trip home that is satisfying for your own kids? Like how do you make sure that their needs actually get met while you're in your home country? How do you make sure that you're, meeting the expectations or setting the expectations of, family and friends back home? How do you make sure that, yeah, at the end of the trip, you don't need a few more extra days? Like you can actually make the most of it while you're there and, still be able to get back to work, after the weekend back in the lost country. Yeah. No. But I think this is really important because I think, you know, Americans will we often glorify, you know, other countries have much longer vacations and, oh, the vacations we're gonna take when we live abroad. Right? Because obviously in the US, we have 2 weeks. But so what if you have longer vacations? Half of your vacations. One vacation out of your 2 every year or whatever. You will go home and that is not a vacation. I mean, will you get to have air conditioning and ice cubes? Conditioning and ice cubes? Yes. And you will miss those the whole time you are gone. I promise you. And that's lovely. But you are not having a vacation. You're pleasing everyone else but yourself. And so that is just something to keep in mind with your kids too. I I like the idea of taking a vacation from your vacation or making sure that this is still a trip for your kids because, yeah, you actually only get one vacation a year still even though you moved to Europe because the other one is actually going back home. So that's a that's like a great point. And then I I I know we're we're going over time a little bit, but repatriation is something that's, like, very near and dear to my heart. I say this all the time, here, but I'm still not over it. I've been back for, like, a decade, and I'm I'm still not okay for the most part. And so what is what is repatriation like for kids specifically? Can you talk about that that final stage if if and when you do move back home with your family? Yeah. So it's but we kinda touched on this a little bit already. Like, one of the things that often makes repatriation complicated is that we underestimate it. So we think that we're going to go back to something that we're familiar with, where we we kinda think like, okay, we're familiar in this environment now. We've done an international move already. So we know what's going for us from like, a practical and logistical perspective. We've done the saying goodbye things. Like, that's when you really start to prepare for repatriation, all of a sudden you realize, like, oh, we made really close friends here in this place that we're not living. And we really, like especially if you're moving abroad with the intention of going back home, you kinda know, like, this is temporary. But then you're leaving that foreign location that's now your new home away from home. You might never go back there. And you're a local after a few years. Like, you have an in favorite restaurant and you're not going to go back to it, most likely. I still Google it every now and then. My favorite restaurant in Shanghai is still there. So I still hope that I get to go back to it. But it's been 9 years. We used to go there every other week. It's been 9 years that I have the food. I I I can talk about this for 5 minutes. I miss it so well. So that's something that you you underestimate that. But from a child's perspective, even more so. So kids, especially those kids that really missed home all along, like in, in, like within recent, but still like looking forward to go back home. For children, it's really difficult to, to sort of grasp the IB that life back home has continued. So even though there's always a space for you, like you're still somebody's grandchild, you're still somebody's cousin, you're still somebody's friend. The the relationships are still there, but life has continued. These people have changed and even more so, the child itself has changed. Yes. We spoke about the TCK aspect already. That's one element, but the child has learned from a different education system. There's multilingualism. There's new hobbies and interests. I mean, to this day, and you can probably relate to this, there were all sorts of TV shows and pop songs coming out in the 5 years that we weren't here. And it's almost as if, like, I I was in a coma or something like that. People just don't understand that I wasn't here for it. I haven't watched the show. I don't know what you're talking about. Yep. So relate to that. And it but it's such a normal part of the culture that you're living in now, and it's like, where were you that you didn't know this? You know? Like, but you absolutely yeah. I I have no frame of reference for the United States from, like, 2003 to, like, 2014. I have nothing. Any of the any show that came out, I don't know what you're talking about for the most part. It's a different now, I think, with, like, Netflix. Like, it is different when it's like, you mentioned it helps. Yeah. I mean, that is true. Yeah. But I that's so interesting, though. So it's it's actually the kids that have been, like, pining to go home a little bit more because they're gonna be still just as diff like, they're gonna be so different. So what they were missing, they're still not really gonna get. Like, they're still gonna be missing it a little bit because it they're they're more different than they realize. Yeah. It's it's like it's not as if you took something of it, then it's like, it just doesn't fit the same way that it used to. And in an international environment, even though you're the foreigner, but people accept you as a foreigner. So there is a certain level of understanding. There's a certain level of support. Then you go back home. You, and you go back to public education or a local education system. You're like, you're nothing special. You were involved for a couple of year, but that wears off, that wears off really quickly. Like Mhmm. Here locally, I just pretend I was never enrolled. Like, I don't talk about it because it's, it, it's just not the but for kids, like, they're not going to be supportive usually. A lot of schools struggle with supporting national students that were involved for a longer period of time. Fair support. Because it's just, it's complicated. Like, whereas actually that support to fit back in, it's something again, as a parent, if you realize that the support for your child isn't as conscious, as much as possible, do talk to the teacher. Do explain to the teacher, like, my child is as foreign as any international student that walks into your building. Like, they they might speak the language. They might have had more background language lessons. Like, if that's an option, then then that's one of the big tips that I can give while you're enrolled. But if whether they did or they didn't, they're still not used to being taught in that language for an entire school week. Like, it's not something that they've experienced in recent years. Even if they've been able to, if they have great grades, back in the, the host country, there could be curricular differences that are subtle or really big. Mathematics is one of these core school subjects that's, I mean, there's not many countries that you can actually where you can compare the math curriculum to another country's math curriculum. It's It could be, it could be a good thing. Like a lot of for your American audience, actually. You guys aren't very famous for equality of your math education. At least not in the other countries. So take your students abroad and they'll actually, they'll probably be ahead of their same age peers of home repatriation. But the other way around, it's one of the warning signs for European students. If you were in the states, it's going to be a tough year. That's so embarrassing. But yeah. Yeah. Right. No. No. No. But but and that's and that's I think what a lot of people when they when they do wanna when Americans wanna move abroad with their kids, a lot of is is actually for, like, a better future. Honestly, like, I think we kind of know we're shit, but then it's like, how do I know if this is actually better? But I think we we know that our education is shit. This is all super interesting. And also because just I think the what you're saying, like, the the major takeaway is that parents need to be aware of these transitional stages. Possibly, if you have resources or I think this is something that we can we can also make sure we have linked, but, like, make it a meta exercise. Like, don't just go through it because as a as a single person or just as a as a couple, you're just you're just gonna go through it together. Right? You're gonna get through it. There's these stages of the honeymoon phase and the the the the the and you're gonna go through it all. But, like, for your kids' sake, you have to actually know and almost be able to very consciously label these stages so that you can be the one who's aware. Like, oh, you're grieving. Or, oh, okay. You're assimilating and, like, understanding these phases. Right? So, like, I think awareness is what I'm really taking away from this is, like, being awareness. Yeah. Absolutely. Awareness is key. And I think we sort of started with this. It is very much possible. Kids are resilient. They'll manage. But you do want your child to appreciate you later on for taking them on an international adventure. So if you can be that guide for your child, that emotional regulator that helping them to to label whatever it is that they're experiencing, yeah, it probably leads to a more positive outcome long term. And that's what we all want with our kids. Right? Yeah. A 100%. Thank you for the free hour of consulting, straight up consulting work you just did. I think this is the one of the major factors for people with families who are looking to move. So just having this, like, base layer, I think, is super helpful for people. How can people find you? And, like, what do you what does Expat Valley do and how can people get involved and and use your resources and things like that? Yeah. Sure. So we're all about successful family relocation experiences. I think over time that has grown into my mantra. I might tattoo it on my arm at one point. Maybe my forehead, but probably should have. So the website, our website is www.expadvalley.com. There's no hyphens or anything in between, though I think you might actually have the URL with the hyphen too. So be creative and you'll probably still find this. And for families specifically, we have our global family library. You are actually part of that. So it's our network of experts talking about a wide range of relevant topics to families. And the idea is that it's like a digital resource that a family can tap into when they're considering to move abroad, or they have already decided to move abroad. And they're kinda looking to get a lay of the land of what is coming for us. What is it that we need to think about? But it's still relevant at later stages. The the expert that I referenced that that talks about heavy trips home, she's also featured in that. We work on a consulting basis with families. So if you need more hands on support, if you need guidance, if you need reassurance, if you need complicated decision making, and like we spoke about education, for example, happy to help navigate those kind of things. Really on the more, like what is the unique needs of your family and the unique circumstances of your relocation. And I guess my favorite part of what, what we do is our children's products. So it's a bit of a personal pet peeve of mine. I'm all about inclusion in all shapes and forms. And I just didn't like it because it's behind us now. We're working on this. If a child goes to a store and they want to send a card for any silly occasion, you can find something. And I felt like if a child wants to send a card to their loved ones back home, just to say to them, hey, I miss you on this international adventure. There should be a postcard for that. So Mhmm. There's a postcard for that now and there's 9 others in in our in our set. There's an international children's friends book that they can use to collect memories from their friends at transition times or just over time as any friend's book usually works, but then with a good understanding of an international context. And there's a whole range of products that really helps children to understand international relocation. Of course, suddenly it's like, it's not very formal educational choice, but there's an educational aspect to it. But most importantly, I feel it's about representation. I want these kids to feel that they're not the first and they're not alone in this international adventure. But there's other who've gone through this. And because of that, there's just materials that fit the journey that fit this part of their lives. Oh, that is so great. And that's so helpful. And again, just like finding your community of people who really represent you also for kids, you know, knowing that, yeah, that they're not alone in all of this. Thank you so much. This is so useful, so beneficial. I thank you so much for taking the time to do it. Yeah. Thanks thanks again for being here. Thank you for having me. It's it's always lovely to talk about this. Alright. Well, I hope that was as useful as I found it, and I hope that you learned a lot from that episode if you're a parent of kids and you are planning a move abroad. If you're looking for even more conversation, we have a free community over on Facebook. It's called Queer Expats Worldwide. So head on over to Facebook and search in the search bar for Queer Expats Worldwide, and you will find our community that is all completely 100% for free. And the conversations are getting deeper and more interesting by the day. Of course, if you are looking for help in your move abroad, you can go over to rainbowrelo.com. That's our website. That's rainbowrelo.com, and we will help you thrive abroad. Not only move abroad, not only live abroad, but also empower you to thrive abroad. We center the experience of queer folks and their families. Of course, we work with allies too. So head on over to rainbowrelo.com for any help there. And if you wanna pick up a book on the subject, head over to Amazon and search for how to move abroad and why it's the best thing you'll do and pick up a book today. Looking forward to seeing you in the next episode.